Jeff Ream Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 no no no Mike, your comments don't fit the narrative here. Instead of a careless judge, it's a DCI CONSPIRACY against Pioneer. DCI hates their tattered and leaky horns and forced Roman to purchase Bb horns. Ask Roman, he'll tell you. He was locked in a dark closet in South Milwaukee for weeks with no cigarettes, no water even...just really dry rye bread left over from various fish frys. Finally, he broke and submitted to buying Bbs. He held out for 4 and a half weeks, but finally, he caved and with him...the future of drum corps. well hell, if it was bread left over after lutefisk, i'd give in too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 since said instruments have always been termed as percussion, I'm ok with it as it stands. Jeff: Check you music history. Aerophons have "not" always been classified as percussion. Those wind instruments were put in the hands of percussion players by composers "before" they were designated as auxiliary percussion, then the conductors had the percussion players perform on those instruments, then the aerophone instruments became accepted as played by percussionists, then and only then was the definition of "auxiliary percussion" coined for those instruments; at that point the shift in the definition of percussion had to change to accommodate the areophones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) In drum corps terms...'color guard' is far from its original definition, as are 'bugles' and 'drums'. So sure, I have no issue with the idea that definitions of things change over time. You could say that even the term 'marching' as used in drum corps and MB is far removed from its original use. Here's where we agree, Mike D. If we are for all these changes that radically alter the activity, but somehow are resistant to changing everything but the name.. " Drum Corps ", then it is disingenuous, and borders on intellectual dishonesty it seems to me. I support those who correctly call this activity " Marching Band " ... and with no recriminations needed. The Carolina Crown marcher last year called what she does in her interview with DCI.... " Marching Band ". She got a LOT of heat for her reference to Crown being a " Marching Band ". That was most unfortunate, in my opinion, as she matter of factly and honestly... and ACCURATELY... described what she does. Nobody knows better than she what she does. DCI units now have guitars, singers, amplifyers, trumpets, 6 piece drum set sitting percussionists, synthesizers, microphones, dancers, etc.... this is correctly called a " Band ".... the fact that the " Band " marches on and off the field, and sometimes marches during performance naturally makes it a " Marching Band ". We have reached... actually surpassed... the time when we have altered all semblance of " Drum and Bugle Corps and Color Guard " but in a very curious way remain stuck in a time warp with monikers that are no longer accurate at all. DCI is " Marching Band " now. People need to get used to the name change. Or don't tell us they're" for change ", when in reality they're really not for change at all if they want to keep the inaccurate phrase " Drum Corps... or Drum and Bugle Corps ", for some strange and paradoxical reason. Edited January 25, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Here's where we agree, Mike D. If we are for all these changes that radically alter the activity, but somehow are resistant to changing everything but the name.. " Drum Corps ", then it is disingenuous, and borders on intellectual dishonesty it seems to me. I support those who correctly call this activity " Marching Band " ... and with no recriminations needed. The Carolina Crown marcher last year called what she does in her interview with DCI.... " Marching Band ". She got a LOT of heat for her reference to Crown being a " Marching Band ". That was most unfortunate, in my opinion, as she matter of factly and honestly... and ACCURATELY... described what she does. Nobody knows better than she what she does. DCI units now have guitars, singers, amplifyers, trumpets, 6 piece drum set sitting percussionists, synthesizers, microphones, dancers, etc.... this is correctly called a " Band ".... the fact that the " Band " marches on and off the field, and sometimes marches during performance naturally makes it a " Marching Band ". We have reached... actually surpassed... the time when we have altered all semblance of " Drum and Bugle Corps and Color Guard " but in a very curious way remain stuck in a time warp with monikers that are no longer accurate at all. DCI is " Marching Band " now. People need to get used to the name change. Or don't tell us they're" for change ", when in reality they're not for change at all if they want to keep the inaccurate phrase " Drum Corps... or Drum and Bugle Corps ". brasso, I see your view... but. There are differences when you call something an "action figure" and "a doll". I mean they are basically the same thing but if I said that a kid playing with his Superman action figure as "playing with dolls" then people get all bugged. The reason is because definitions matter... but connotations of words are important too! Why did that Crown girl get heat? because of connotations, NOT definitions. It is widely accepted that connotations of drum corps and marching band are SO VASTLY DIFFERENT than their definitions make them appear to be. That's a fact. DCI is " Marching Band " now. People need to get used to the name change. Or don't tell us they're" for change ", when in reality they're not for change at all if they want to keep the inaccurate phrase " Drum Corps... or Drum and Bugle Corps ". The term "basketball" underwent the same exact connotation change as "drum corps". Basketball first used peach baskets hung in the air as the goal but now they use hoops and net. Maybe they should call it hoop and net ball? No! Because that's what it's called even after the change was implemented. A number of things in our Society have changed but the name sticks because we accept the connotations of words as well as their definition. So, drum corps is still drum corps based on connotations, how people use words, how what is generally accepted as words. Not to mention a number of words in the english language have multiple definitions. So no, I can be for change but also for keeping the name of the activity Drum Corps. People make words, words do not make themselves. Edited January 25, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 brasso, I see your view... but. There are differences when you call something an "action figure" and "a doll". I mean they are basically the same thing but if I said that a kid playing with his Superman action figure as "playing with dolls" then people get all bugged. The reason is because definitions matter... but connotations of words are important too! Why did that Crown girl get heat? because of connotations, NOT definitions. It is widely accepted that connotations of drum corps and marching band are SO VASTLY DIFFERENT than their definitions make them appear to be. That's a fact. I understand where your coming from in that people's perceptions come to the fore. Do you think the term " Marching Band " in most people's mind when they hear that, has a positive or a negative perception ( "connotation " ) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I understand where your coming from in that people's perceptions come to the fore. Do you think the term " Marching Band " in most people's mind when they hear that, has a positive or a negative perception ( "connotation " ) ? Well, I was being a bit dualistic there to categorize all connotations as positive or negative. The connotations of marching band for a drum corps aficionado is "negative" or "down played". "Marching Band" is for novices, elemental, "marching band" is for showmanship and football, "marching bands" lack the integrity of "drum corps". "Marching Band" is not as grand or a personification of dedication, hard work, professionalism or respect (or at least not at the levels that "drum corps" connotations give off.) The connotations for the average Joe: Is neither positive nor negative because there is an indifference. I think those connotations are nerdy, dorky, nonathletic, funny, plays for the football team, get the crowd going, American tradition in parades, public celebration. I don't think I'm far off... If I were list the connotations of drum corps for a drum corps aficionado you kinda know what I would list... Literal definitions are important obviously for learning, understanding, and the literal meaning of words ARE important. In day to day English we don't speak as much with definitions as much as we do in abstract terms, phrases, idioms and connotations. Edited January 25, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Well, I was being a bit dualistic there to categorize all connotations as positive or negative. The connotations of marching band for a drum corps aficionado is "negative" or "down played". "Marching Band" is for novices, elemental, "marching band" is for showmanship and football, "marching bands" lack the integrity of "drum corps". "Marching Band" is not as grand or a personification of dedication, hard work, professionalism or respect (or at least not at the levels that "drum corps" connotations give off.) The connotations for the average Joe: Is neither positive nor negative because there is an indifference. I think those connotations are nerdy, dorky, nonathletic, funny, plays for the football team, get the crowd going, American tradition in parades, public celebration. I don't think I'm far off... If I were list the connotations of drum corps for a drum corps aficionado you kinda know what I would list... Literal definitions are important obviously for learning, understanding, and the literal meaning of words ARE important. In day to day English we don't speak as much with definitions as much as we do in abstract terms, phrases, idioms and connotations. I'd agree with this assessment. When we say " Marching Band " what is conjured up in one's mind depends upon that person's frame of reference, experience, and so forth. And you gave a pretty good cross section of people and how they would be most likely to respond to the term " Marching Band ". The reason I asked is... why would people that come from the High School or College Band world be opposed to the name change to " Marching Band" when they march in one in College and the instrumentation is the same, or almost the same ? I do understand the stylistic differences and all that, but there are major stylistic differences even within the College Marching Band world as well. ( Ohio State, Umass, Stanford, Grambling, etc for example ) Why wouldn't DCI " Marching Band " be just another stylistic difference as well ? Why does there appear little to no willingness to let go of the anachronistic ( and inaccurate ) moniker " Drum Corps".. or "Drum and Bugle Corps " ? Why do we still use the phrase " Guards " ? What exactly is " guarded or "protected", or "honored" ? Why is there the unwillingness to use the phrase " dance squads " or " dance teams " ? I don't mean this is a pjorative sense either. Just for accuracy sake, that's all. I have no idea why we use the phrase " Guard " anymore. Do you ? Edited January 25, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Brasso, Charlie, and MikeD: In the United States we have Football, but the foot only touches the ball around 1 percent of the time during an entire game whereas the hands touch the ball around 95 percent of the time; There is nothing Stock anymore in the National Association of Stock Car Racing (NASCAR); yet these names are still applied in a respect to tradition. So why can't the title Drum Corps follow suit as it morphs over time? Edited January 25, 2011 by Stu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I'd agree with this assessment. When we say " Marching Band " what is conjured up in one's mind depends upon that person's frame of reference, experience, and so forth. And you gave a pretty good cross section of people and how they would be most likely to respond to the term " Marching Band ". The reason I asked is... why would people that come from the High School or College Band world be opposed to the name change to " Marching Band" when they march in one in College and the instrumentation is the same, or almost the same ? I do understand the stylistic differences and all that, but there are major stylistic differences even within the College Marching Band world as well. ( Ohio State, Umass, Stanford, Grambling, etc for example ) Why wouldn't DCI " Marching Band " be just another stylistic difference as well ? Why does there appear little to no willingness to let go of the anachronistic ( and inaccurate ) moniker " Drum Corps".. or "Drum and Bugle Corps " ? Why do we still use the phrase " Guards " ? What exactly is " guarded or "protected", or "honored" ? Why is there the unwillingness to use the phrase " dance squads " or " dance teams " ? I don't mean this is a pjorative sense either. Just for accuracy sake, that's all. I have no idea why we use the phrase " Guard " anymore. Do you ? Honestly, the only answer I can think of right now is... that's just the way it is. And anything to change this is frankly more headache than its worth. Though I'm not fairly certain, but the term "color guard" was in reference to the men during old time wars who held the flag of their nation (or whatever) as they marched into battle. "colors" were another name for flags and the men's job were to guard the flag and make sure it was always waving and high in the air... but I'm not sure... someone who knows better help me out. Edited January 25, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Brasso, Charlie, and MikeD: In the United States we have Football, but the foot only touches the ball around 1 percent of the time during an entire game whereas the hands touch the ball around 95 percent of the time; There is nothing Stock anymore in the National Association of Stock Car Racing (NASCAR); yet these names are still applied in a respect to tradition. So why can't the title Drum Corps follow suit as it morphs over time? Well, we couldn't change the name from " football " to " handball ", as we already have a game called " handball ". " Football " seems appropriate to keep as it's name because we start the game with a " kick off " in which the first movement of the ball into play competition begins with the " foot " ( not the hand )kicking the " foot " "ball" down the field. If we can not get a first down, we " punt " with the " foot" the ball down the field. We start the 2nd half of play with... " the foot "... where the football is kicked down the field once more. When a team scores points, it is in a variety of ways, but the easiest way to score points in competition is not in any other fashion but by using the " foot " to kick the ball through the uprights to score some points. Passing the ball or running the ball for points, while giving one more potential for scoring, is harder to do than scoring points via kicking the ball from a greater distance. Also, more games are won in overtime by kicking with ones " foot " the ball through the upright, than passing, running across the goaline, as ( NFL )the first one to score any points at all in overtime wins the competition. Also, the highest scorers on most teams are not QB's or running backs. They are " kickers ", these are players that score points for their teams by using..... you guessed it.... their " foot ". They are given more opportunities throughout the course of the game to score points. Even when somebody else scores points on a touchdown, it is the kicker who automatically then comes out onto the field to use his... you guessed it again... his " foot " to score one more point for his team. The teams usually elect to to score the 1 point via the " foot " being used to score the " extra point " instead of giving the ball via the " hands " to some other player in hopes of scoring 2 points in a generally considered more difficult manner. Once the " EXTRA point " is made via the " foot ", the kicker then goes up the field and gets ready to then use his " foot " again to try and kick the ball into the endzone where by using his foot well he hopes the ball can not be returned. The player that uses his " foot " is VERY important to a team. He is called a member of the "SPECIAL teams". And again, most of the time he is the player than has more points that he has scored than any other player on the team. So calling the game " Football " still seems appropriate to me. Now...as for " stock car racing ", I 'll" punt the ball" on this one, as I don't have a clue on this sport other than to say that I saw the movie "Talledega Nights... the Ballad of Ricky Bobby " and thought it hilarious in sort of a wacked out, cornball sort of way. Edited January 25, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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