WOOHOO Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 OK, I guess I'll take a minute and weigh in with a few comments about this topic. I'll preface my remarks with a few facts about me that may add some context for where I am coming from. First, I am what is lovingly referred to on DCP as a "dino". I attended my first DC event in 1957, and have been a fan ever since. Secondly, I am not a musician in any sense of the word (hence my screen name), and have never (alas) marched or participated actively in drum corps. Just a long time fan. As I listen to discussions of A&E in drum corps I continually sense a tendency to extremes. It is either inherently evil and will result in the death of the activity, or it is seen as a savior which is necessary for the activity to continue to exist successfully. I personally see it as neither. Rather, I see A&E as a musical element whose place (or not) in drum corps is still in great flux. It has potential to both improve and diminish the art form. Which, will depend on how the artists learn to to harness the potential and grow their understanding and skills. Allow me to draw an analogy from the area of art I am most comfortable with, graphic art and photography. Over the past decade, digital technology and computer processing have had a major influence on the direction of photography as an art form. The inclusion of this technology has not been without passionate debate. Digital capture, and especially digital post processing ("photoshopping") has been heralded as a destructive force which will "water-down" and diminish photography as an art form, or it is seen as a creative break-through which will result a creative revolution for the better. Early on, the former was somewhat true in that a great deal of not so good images appeared. Images were over-sharpened, over-saturated as the technological tools were highly over-used. Recently the same has been happening with HDR images; greater dynamic range but an overly "crunchy" look. However, as time has gone on and artists have become more familiar with the technological tools, things have started to swing back toward "traditional" elements, with the emphasis on composition, light, and imagination. Some very powerful images are being produced that could not have been produced with the limitations of traditional darkroom tools, but which still are true to traditional artistic elements of "good" graphic art. I see A&E as being along the same vein. Its use, at the moment is (IMHO) for it to be "over-used" in ways that sometimes emphasize the technology over design, music and imagination. Ultimately, I think (hope?) things will balance out and the end product will be powerful shows that could only exist in the presence of modern technological elements but which are still true to the traditional drum corps art form. I believe that that balance is not only possible, but probable, that this will happen as the artists work through the use and place of A&E in their creative vision, and develop the skill sets needed to A&E in effective and pleasing ways. Ultimately as fans, I think it is imperative that we not allow ourselves to get too invested in black vs. white arguments over whether A&E should or should not exist in drum corps; an exercise in futility. Amps and electronics are here and with no indication that they will go away. Instead, we might do better to focus on discussions of how and to what extent these elements can be used to produce an artistic result we can enjoy and value, with the hope that those discussions will help guide the artists (and each other) to appreciate the use of these tools. Granted, that will be difficult in that our own personal preferences for either more or less will not easily change. People on either of the extremes may be lost along the way, but such is normally the case with any type of evolution. One last remark. I agree whole-heartedly with the comment made by CrunchyTenor earlier. The really important factor influencing the growth of this activity we so dearly love, is tied more closely to the changes in our society brought about by the information boom on the internet than it is tied to any controversial issues involving electronics, show design, what type of brass is being used, etc. In the long run, what and how we communicate what drum corps has to offer to those unfamiliar with it will be the real determinant of its strength as an activity. Respectfully, Photographer Jim Wonderful post. All art has had a history of a struggle between tradition and innovation to find a successful middle ground that achieves well. Hopefully, drum corps gets the execution kinks out of electronics to get to that happy middle ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgarside83 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Seems to be growing? No basis in fact. No emperical evidence to support this assertion. On the other hand, fans consistently vote for electronic shows among their favorites, for instance, in the Countdown series. Narrated shows comprised three of the eight selections in the 2008 Countdown (2005 Cadets, 2007 Crown and 2007 Bluecoats). Cadets make extensive use of synths and electronics this year and are consistently among the crowd favorites. Corps in general each year are finding new and interesting uses for electronics each year. I don't see where you can claim that objections are growing. HH Which of the top 8, or 12, or 30 shows can I pick from to like the best that doesn't have electronics??? I hate electronics. Doesn't mean I hate the shows. I just hate that part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 My, my, you have a flair for the dramatic. Comparing electronics to the ebola virus. That's a little much for me. I know you were simply illustrating a point, but that is a very ineffective way to do so. An interesting way of avoiding the point. What would make it more palatable for you? Breaking your leg? A tax audit? How about a boil on your bum? I haven't had any of these, but I know I don't want one. There - clear now???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) No. This is simple. Fans could have voted for dozens, hundreds, of other shows. They could have voted for shows that had no narration. They could have voted for shows without amps. They voted for three shows that featured the amplified human voice. That is signficant. It is. HH clarification on a point you may have missed... those favoite show polls and also countdown classics didnt always offer older shows to the table. Some of them were done entirely of recent corps. Edited July 29, 2011 by Jeff Ream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgarside83 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 That's not what I said. The vote was open to any drum corps fan. Indeed, if you think about it, the great legacy tail of drum corps might well have swamped the poll with their accoustic preference. And yet, what happened? Crown 07, Bluecoats 07 and Cadets 05. All featured the amplified human voice prominently. That all three earned enough votes against all other corps is significant to this discussion (if disappointing to those who'd rather believe no one can tolerate a&e). Yes, in summarizing, I mischaracterized Cadets 05 as narrated. That said that show had three instances of amplified voice, including an extended - and wonderful - drumspeak feature that we would never had enjoyed without mics. Doesn't diminish the strength of my argument at all. HH Wonderful drumspeak!? Being a percussionist, 05 Cadets was the 1st show i had ever seen where I loved everything except the drum solo. A 3 year old can sing hertas. I'd like to see a good drum line play them. Take the drum speak to America's Got Talent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOOHOO Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 An interesting way of avoiding the point. What would make it more palatable for you? Breaking your leg? A tax audit? How about a boil on your bum? I haven't had any of these, but I know I don't want one. There - clear now???? Someone's a grumpy grandpa today If you don't want to see electronics in DCI, then why bother going? You seem to have already made up your mind on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Which of the top 8, or 12, or 30 shows can I pick from to like the best that doesn't have electronics??? I hate electronics. Doesn't mean I hate the shows. I just hate that part of it. Which doesn't equate to growing evidence of growing dissatisfaction with electronics. On the other hand, the fact that enough people voted to include Cadets 05, Bluecoats 05, Crown 07 and Bluecoats 07 in Countdown programs is evidence of acceptance of those shows with their mic'ed voice. Rather than being despised, they're championed. Significant. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) I am sure that part of what is happening there, as in many such surveys, is that the people responding to the poll are likelier to have seen more recent work or have it fresher in their memory. Favorite shows in 2008 were very likely to feature shows of 2007, 2006, 2005, and those were the years that narration was most heavily used... No. This is simple. Fans could have voted for dozens, hundreds, of other shows. They could have voted for shows that had no narration. They could have voted for shows without amps. They voted for three shows that featured the amplified human voice. That is signficant. It is. Simplicity itself. It turns out the 2008 Countdown was for the "six favorite corps performances from 2005-2007". Of the top six vote-getters, from those years when amplified voice was fairly common, two feature voice. Edit: as Jeff Ream has also pointed out. Edited July 29, 2011 by N.E. Brigand 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Someone's a grumpy grandpa today If you don't want to see electronics in DCI, then why bother going? You seem to have already made up your mind on the subject. Being grumpy is a side perk of being a grandpa. The best perk is having a grand daughter like mine! I've already explained several times - friends on Facebook talked me into it, and after seeing Blue Knights on that un-nameable site, I agreed. So are you going to pan me for being inflexible and staying away, or being wishy-washy and going again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Which doesn't equate to growing evidence of growing dissatisfaction with electronics. On the other hand, the fact that enough people voted to include Cadets 05, Bluecoats 05, Crown 07 and Bluecoats 07 in Countdown programs is evidence of acceptance of those shows with their mic'ed voice. Rather than being despised, they're championed. Significant. HH Can you name one new fan who vehimently stayed away from DCI until such time as electronics were introduced? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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