Demand means nothing

[MisterA]

I think there is quite a bit of demand in Blue Devils show this year. However, I feel that there are 4 corps with a little more demand in their show. 3 of the corps are right in the mix in placements the last few weeks. And it also appears that there have been more changes in Crown and Cavies show than in Blue Devils. I saw alot of dirt in Cavies show in Atlanta, particularly in the spots they had just changed. Crown has had what seems to be a complete overhaul since the beginning of the season. The new ending is amazing and once they clean it there it alot more potential for them. Cadets have also put in some changes, but they seemed almost just as clean as Blue Devils on Saturday. Looking at the top 4 right now, I think any one of these corps could win the championship. Blue Devils have the weakest demand of any of the 4 corps, but they are probably the cleanest as of right now. But I think on finals week, I think if the other 3 corps clean up in the last 2 weeks, Blue Devils could end up back in 4th place. Now granted, I am sure Blue Devils being the amazing corps that they are, can still have some new things coming in their show. But this year I think the storyline has once again taken the front seat to what is sometimes going onto the field. I think a lack of butts in the seats, and the G8 power struggle are taking their toll on the activity. I think the judging has just become so skewed this season. I know there has been alot of placement changes, and that would be great if it was actually like that. But the 12th spot race has gotten ridiculous. Making it look conceivable that any one of 6 corps could get that 12th spot at finals. It doesn't even matter to make semifinals this year, since 25 corps instead of 17 make it. So the judges have to put some excitement into the race for 12th. Realistically if you look at the shows and performance levels, only Spirit, Glassmen, and possibly Academy should have a shot at finals. Troopers, Colts and Crossmen should be at least 2-3 points behind these corps. Talk about overlooking the lack of demand for scoring and getting more butts in the seats. One of these corps has gotten nothing but polite applause most of the season, and have very little demand in the show. They have very little demand or GE in their show, but yet they are one of 3 corps that have been in 12th place at some point in the season. What does it mean when even your own fans aren't giving out applause except for one time other than at the end of a musical selection? There is definitely something wrong with that picture if they are getting high visual and GE marks.

Now if every corps performed perfectly the show they have right now on finals night, then the top 4 corps would probably place within about 8 tenths of a point of each other. I think Cavies would probably win by a tenth over Cadets, with Crown probably a tenth or 2 back from that, and Blue Devils would be about 4 tenths behing them.

And if Demand had the the final vote over the 12-15th corps, and they performed almost perfectly, Spirit and Glassmen would probably end up 12-13, with Spirit winning by just a tiny margin. Academy would probably be back about half a point from them. But, if you have been paying attention all season long, you can see exactly what is happening and what will probably happen at the end of the year. I'm calling it now, Spirit and Troopers tie for 12th place at semifinals. And this is all made possible by the summer games(also known as judges)

[JulesBry]

But we've been cinditioned to think louder higher faster is the end all be all....and it's not

But, like winning, "louder higher faster" doesn't suck. :-)

[zig zig ZAG]

Demand is hard to define in this artform, but the judges know what they are looking for. Demand can be the artistry in the music, the range, articulations, speed, length, endurance, and intricate rhythms. With visual it can be step size, style, large-form movement, quick sequential movements, physical upper and lower body movements, difficult guide points, backwards marching (which is hard at any tempo--watch the Cadets do the backfield Zipper at the end of their show) and much more.

The job of the judge that assesses content in each sub-caption is to look at artistry, demand, and the technical skills being asked of the performers. Demand is important because we don't want someone playing "Marry Had A Little Lamb" in half notes, yet doing so perfectly and musically so therefore they score the highest. Their performance score would be high for the Box they are in, but that Box would be a 1 or 2, not a 5. And the content score would be low because the demand is lacking and the artistry is only capable of moderate, at best, levels of musicianship. Perhaps this is all the corps can handle (they are young). This is fine. There score will now reflect that they are young, doing good things with a moderately easy book.

If there is NO demand, then clean is clean is clean. My "Doxology" in whole notes beats your "To Tame The Perilous Skies" because it is cleaner. Clearly this analogy does not make sense, so demand is needed, just as artistry in visual and music is needed.

In order to make top 12 you need the perfect combination of artistry, demand, logical show design, execution to the max, and great general effect. There is nothing easy about this. Coming up with ideas is one thing, designing them, teaching them, and putting it on the field for kids to perform is a completely different beast.

That sounds good, but might be wishful thinking. I don't doubt you would use these criteria. But if the judging guidelines don't specify what you've outlined, then that's not what's happening.

The whole point here is that none of us can define demand, that the guidelines don't define demand, so the demand for demand has been dropping.

Since audiences like to be wowed, I venture to say that the demand for seeing less demanding performances has been similarly dropping.

Don't people in general want to see something new, to be thrilled, moved, engaged? This isn't pandering, but why we seek out art and entertainment in the first place.

And why didn't anyone address my point about virtuosity? Virtuosity is demand plus execution/artistry, isn't it?

So is DCI about virtuosity or vague, relative criteria like execution of a given show design, as in measured against the 'demands' (i.e. requirements) of that particular show design?

If demand is all relative, demand essentially means nothing. Demand can't be captured by 'effect' or 'performance'.

I don't think this is a pointless thread, because I'm seriously trying to understand what's up, what's down, and why.

Heck, I could be wrong completely.

[WPendergrass]

Not necessarily. Most body work isn't hard at all. Sadly, many judges credit the easy stuff (which is a large majority) the same way they credit what truly is demanding. Also, body work by itself isn't nearly as impressive as when it's part of simultaneous responsibility.

Any time you get a large group of individuals to do something artistic, in time, and that requires that much body awareness, it will be difficult.

I think in our exchange alone, we are seeing the differences in opinion in what is difficult. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if two Joe's can't agree here on DCP, I doubt it is much better in DCI HQ.

[Kamarag]

You know something, in the same tongue where people don't want people bagging on BD or saying how much their shows are not demanding enough, at the same time people shouldn't be minimizing what other corps are doing in terms of "demand." We don't want every corps to be Cadets/Cavies, etc., at the same time we don't want every corps to be BD. It's called variety. Some people love BD more than others, and some people love Cavies/Cadets/Crown etc. more than others.

This is really right on the money. Every show in the top 4 is incredibly demanding in it's own right, and in totally different ways. We need to put the "demand" argument to rest, because it's meaningless once you get to those corps.

[blue_devil_fan9903]

You know something, in the same tongue where people don't want people bagging on BD or saying how much their shows are not demanding enough, at the same time people shouldn't be minimizing what other corps are doing in terms of "demand." We don't want every corps to be Cadets/Cavies, etc., at the same time we don't want every corps to be BD. It's called variety. Some people love BD more than others, and some people love Cavies/Cadets/Crown etc. more than others. They're all fantastic corps capable of doing some amazing things and I think threads like this are only adding fuel to the fire and are completely pointless, unless the point is to continue to get people riled up because BD has won the show in ATL. My .02 cents.

Couldn't say it any better.

[chaddyt]

You know something, in the same tongue where people don't want people bagging on BD or saying how much their shows are not demanding enough, at the same time people shouldn't be minimizing what other corps are doing in terms of "demand." We don't want every corps to be Cadets/Cavies, etc., at the same time we don't want every corps to be BD. It's called variety. Some people love BD more than others, and some people love Cavies/Cadets/Crown etc. more than others. They're all fantastic corps capable of doing some amazing things and I think threads like this are only adding fuel to the fire and are completely pointless, unless the point is to continue to get people riled up because BD has won the show in ATL. My .02 cents.

And this is why we need to grab a beer...

... some summer you actually make it out to Indy.

[chaddyt]

Okay.... maybe "fault" is a bad word. What I meant was there is nothing inherently "un-crowd pleasing" about this show. It seems to me to be built from the bottom up with entertaining and connecting with the crowd as its mission (along with winning another DCI championship).... while at the same time maintaining the classic Blue Devils vibe.... Yes, the show does not have break neck kaleidoscope drill (a la Cadets/Cavies), but when has a Blue Devils show ever had that? But the music is not dissonant, the melodies should be more familiar to the average drum corps fan than most of what drum corps play, there are ample impact moments, screamers, etc.... I am just kind of at a loss as to what more people want from the Blue Devils. This show is soooooo different from last years', yet I am seeing the same comments over and over from many of the same people. It really bothers me when people say that the design of their shows are "wasting the corps' talent" and things like that. Just because the Blue Devils are not exactly what you want them to be, doesn't mean their design is flawed.... that is kind of what I mean by it is your own "fault."

So essentially, maybe the show just isn't my cup of tea.

Which is exactly right. Being a fan of drum corps, I (like just about everyone on here) have aspects of the activity I like/appreciate/get wow'd by more than others.

And... being a drum corps fan, I (like just about everyone on here) will post my opinions on what I like/appreciate/get wow'd by.

And... being that it's a discussion forum about an activity that is inherently competitive, I (like just about everyone on here) may even post my opinions on what I DON'T like/appreciate/get wow'd by.

Doesn't make me a "hater". Doesn't mean I don't think the members of Corps A don't work just as hard or aren't as talented as the members of Corps B.

Just means I don't connect with or enjoy Corps A's show as much as I do Corps B, and when Corps A beats Corps B, I (like just about everyone on here) will voice my opinion.

If this is a sin, well then give me a damaged Jupiter horn to throw, slap some panty hose on my face, and dress me in demon drag, cause I'm going to hell.

[Jeff Ream]

Okay.... maybe "fault" is a bad word. What I meant was there is nothing inherently "un-crowd pleasing" about this show. It seems to me to be built from the bottom up with entertaining and connecting with the crowd as its mission (along with winning another DCI championship).... while at the same time maintaining the classic Blue Devils vibe.... Yes, the show does not have break neck kaleidoscope drill (a la Cadets/Cavies), but when has a Blue Devils show ever had that? But the music is not dissonant, the melodies should be more familiar to the average drum corps fan than most of what drum corps play, there are ample impact moments, screamers, etc.... I am just kind of at a loss as to what more people want from the Blue Devils. This show is soooooo different from last years', yet I am seeing the same comments over and over from many of the same people. It really bothers me when people say that the design of their shows are "wasting the corps' talent" and things like that. Just because the Blue Devils are not exactly what you want them to be, doesn't mean their design is flawed.... that is kind of what I mean by it is your own "fault."

well I half agree with you. Musically it's far more appealing than thelast few shows. visually, it's just as confusing to many

[Jeff Ream]

You know something, in the same tongue where people don't want people bagging on BD or saying how much their shows are not demanding enough, at the same time people shouldn't be minimizing what other corps are doing in terms of "demand." We don't want every corps to be Cadets/Cavies, etc., at the same time we don't want every corps to be BD. It's called variety. Some people love BD more than others, and some people love Cavies/Cadets/Crown etc. more than others. They're all fantastic corps capable of doing some amazing things and I think threads like this are only adding fuel to the fire and are completely pointless, unless the point is to continue to get people riled up because BD has won the show in ATL. My .02 cents.

i can agree with this