Pioneer

[chasgroh]

Whose Board of Directors are you referring to? If it is Pioneer's Board, I, as a member, personally invite you to come and state your case!

What are your "objective" reasons to support your calling for any change at the top?

Are they based on how you were treated as a member of the corps?

Are they based on your current knowledge as to today's internal functioning and operations of the Pioneer Corps?

Are they based based purely on the numerical placing of the corps?

If you were or are ashamed of having been a Pioneer, I pity you! The thought of you questioning Roman's ability to lead makes me wonder your real objectives. If you really cared, wouldn't you be helping out your corps and showing positive support rather than back-stabbing the very one who gave you so much, who for you and many others has gone way above and beyond the norm?

If you actually saw the corps performance in quarterfinals (DID YOU???), I do not know how you could ridicule the corps director's leadership abililty of successfully putting together a highly respectable and entertaining product. He developed an excellent teaching staff, and under his leadership we recruited a corps made up of many new members who bonded together giving it their all as Proud Pioneer. We are so very proud of them. Roman's leadership by example is the glue that secures that bond.

I am sure that our members are highly offended by a Pioneer alumnus biting the hand of the very person who gave him the many opportunities to learn and experience drum corps, both musically and socially.

Yes, Bal, our members are very disappointed that the scoring did not reflect the the musical and visual progress of your Pioneer Corps, but they are exteremely proud of each other and their Pioneer Corps Family. Degrading statements about any of our staff, members, or management, only serve to try and break the bond of our (your) Pioneer family. I hope that is not your intention.

I am sure that our members are highly offended by a Pioneer alumnus biting the hand of the very person who gave him the many opportunities to learn, grow, in an experience drum corps environment, both musically and socially.

What is the "800 pound elephant in the room" that you refer to? If it refers to all of Roman's fine efforts of sincerely caring for each and every member, giving them a fine instructional staff and an entertaining show for them to perform, you fail to see the corps activity primarily being that of a musical youth activity for the benefit of each and every one of those young members. That is more important than mere numbers or standings. Don't get me wrong, we value being competitive, but the prime focus is on each and every member, far more important than status or numbers.

So please, if you have anything constructive to say, please do. Would you like to be part of our alumni association? Would you like to come and offer some positive ideas to our board? Would you like to come and be of help during camps, everydays, or during the season? If so, call or email me. I would like for you to see and witness for yourself what our current staff, management team, and members are doing to make your Pioneer Corps truly, "Better Every Day!"

Murray

dbcpmilw@execpc.com

414-327-2847

Right on, Murray!!

cg

[PeeJay]

I finally sat down to read the thread. As a former member from the 90's years I feel I am and have been very loyal to the corps ever since I joined them. I have worked with many staff groups and most with Roman. Roman to me is an example in many ways. His determination, his loyalty and most of all his love for the corps and members, I haven't seen anywhere else in my life.

That being said I must admit I have questions and concerns too. I felt last year that Pioneer did not deserve that last place, when many years I could understand the outcome. This year is a whole different story. This Pioneer reminded me most of the small group of determined people that started the way up. It was like watching the 1993/1994 editions. However the competitive success is translated the wrong way in my opinion. Am I happy with the 27th place.....god no! I can seriously understand that some Open Class corps were better, but still feel this corps could have just make semi's. But as Roman tought us.....never blame the judges.....so I will not go that far at all. The 27th place is a fact. But look at it this way. Pioneer beat a very large amount of corps....corps triple their size.

What needs to be done?

- A new approach to the program? Maybe....although I felt the start of something great started this year. Why not give that a chance for a few years?

- Moving into Open? No...why? The finance part was discussed here. Let's turn it around. Wouldn't it be much better to score Open Class corps on World sheets more often during the season? Like it was in DCM where we were Division II, but only participated only in a few Div II shows. It is much more exciting for everyone. And as a side note....wouldn't Cascades, Jersey Surf, Teal Sound, Mandarins, etc benefit from more competition during the year? I guess they will. So I think the problem is more the current way of dealing with the classes than classification itself. I remember how hyped we were beating Troopers for the first time. And they....they benefitted by fighting back and got better.

- Fire Roman. Biggest nonsense ever. Maybe a shift in the responsibilities might help. But I say that more out of love for Roman. He's not the youngest anymore and the touring must wear him out. I can still see the two of us after the 1997 tour cleaning up Pioneerland. I was as tired as he was......but I was 21.

- Deciding to win. YES. Blue Stars, Troopers, etc decided to come back. They laid out a plan, hired people, raised funds....they got there. Most important is to have a clear plan and have members stick with you instead of marching with Pio for one year and then move on. Remember that all other WC corps benefit from Pioneer. I know it is way easy to state all this on here.....but we need hands. Many....if the alumni step up and help the board of directors achieve this....we can do it.

There is so much to say about this subject. There are so many emotions.....I want Pioneer to do well, but I feel that people are highlighting Pioneers flaws way too much. I have not read any discussion like this about Cascades & Jersey Surf....and they did not score that much higher with corps much bigger. That is great as the mentioned corps are great organizations and need to follow their own path. But it makes me wonder sometimes.

Finally.....Pioneer 2011 members, be extremely proud. And if you want a spot to march in 2012....consider Pioneer. They are truly a fantastic organization!

Edited August 16, 2011 by PeeJay

[audiodb]

Good lord, when will people stop beating this old drum? It's simply not true.

Open Class corps receive appearance fees the same as any other corps for most of the season. When the Open Class-only tour starts (the last ten-fourteen days of the tour), they forego show fees because it's better for everyone financially (perhaps we can get an Open director to explain it....again, for the tenth time).

Your assertion is mistaken and misleading.

"Most of the season" is operated under several different sets of policies depending on the region. At the risk of oversimplification:

1. Appearance fees are often a moot point for open-class corps, as they are often not allowed into paying shows.

2. When an open-class unit does get into paying shows, the appearance fee is much lower than that of a world-class corps.

3. The nature of the segregated late-season open-class tour makes it necessary for them to forego appearance fees to balance their segregated books. That measure would not be necessary if the classes were integrated.

[audiodb]

So, Nemesis has some good points, IMO.

Out of curiosity then, why do we even have different classes?

I know that there used to be Div I/II/III and A and Open and such, but what is the difference?

I know that there is corps size (150 and under, etc), but what else?

Also, so why would a corps that is Open score 15-20 pts less on the World Class score sheets?

I guess I don't really know what the difference is.

If everyone was scored always on the same sheets, Blue Devils to Blue Saints, would there be a 40 pt difference? Sure. But why do we have classifications?

The honest answer....so that there can be members and non-members. Haves and have-nots. There have been other reasons for class divisions over time, but this is the only consistently enduring and remaining distinction between what we now call "world-class" and "open-class".

[audiodb]

Personally I'd ditch the Pioneer name and go back to being The Thing, with a Bridgemen/VK approach to the market. No one else is doing that these days, and it could be a draw for kids who want to do WC but want a different performance style than the 'house brand' seen in the mid levels of WC.

Apparently, you missed Jersey Surf's 2012 show announcement.

[audiodb]

If over the past eight years the judges subjectively decided to consistently place Pioneer one tenth (.1) above the second or third corps from the bottom of the competitive World Class ranks, we wouldn't be having this discussion about Pioneer. One tenth difference above the bottom few corps is all it would take to shift this discussion to some other corps than Pioneer. In the minds of some, that's what separates Pioneer's "worthiness" to be called a World Class corps vs. the argument for them to move "down" to a "lower class" of competitive corps... one tenth.

Yes. Among your many excellent points, this one bears repeating.

It isn't easy to cope with "last place" in any activity. But in an activity as large-scale and Darwinistic as drum corps, a corps surviving multiple last-place finishes is a miracle. For any corps to still be here after taking eight "last place" finishes in ten years, there must be something special in their DNA. Imagine what the fatality rate must be for that kind of situation. Dare I say, Pioneer has world-class staying power.

That said, I think it is vitally important for Pioneer to get out of that situation. Both their survival chances and their mission statement are much better satisfied by at least attaining that "one tenth" edge over at least one WC rival that makes good on the goal of being "competitive". At this point, it would appear that recruiting has been critically impacted by the competitive prognosis of the corps. That must change....now.

[Jeff Ream]

Good lord, when will people stop beating this old drum? It's simply not true.

Open Class corps receive appearance fees the same as any other corps for most of the season. When the Open Class-only tour starts (the last ten-fourteen days of the tour), they forego show fees because it's better for everyone financially (perhaps we can get an Open director to explain it....again, for the tenth time).

10-14 days of no income in Open Class is a lot of lost money for a world class corps, even ones at the bottom of the rankings.

They need better vehicles. They lose a ton of rehearsal time due to malfunctions. They need a staff that can attract kids and be left alone to do their jobs. Then they need to retain membership.

Those 3 things right there will help the corps on and off the field.

[randyb]

Very well stated Murray!!! I for one, have had the pleasure of our corps spending time with the Pioneer family this summer and will tell you that the kids are great and that the atmosphere at Pioneer is a very good one that all in the activity should have!!

Edited August 16, 2011 by randyb

[Tim78]

This is my first time since late 2000 on a drum corps forum...it's been a while...

I marched in Pioneer for much of the mid to late 90s, aging out in 2000. I can echo the sentiment of others saying that the corps proved to be very formative in the life lessons it taught me. For that, Roman is second to none. He does care about the kids and making sure they have a great touring experience. The fact that Pioneer gives many who would not otherwise be able to march corps a place to perform is a very worthy goal.

I marched with some of the most competetive Pioneer units, placement-wise. We believed we were as good, if not better than other DIv 1 (WC) corps and that came through in every performance.

I really do think it is time for the corps to get outside of its' comfort zone. Re-examine every part, assess what does work (which there are many things done well) and address the weaknesses once and for all (recruiting and retaining membership). Attracting a dynamic staff that will push students hard and keep them excited and believing as well is key.

Just my two cents.

Tim

[mvbailey12]

Alright, so I am seeing on the Pioneer website that there are some huge things coming for 2012.

What does this mean? Is there a code that we have to break to be able to see what is coming?

Should I get out my decoder ring from Ovaltine to see where they are going?

Inquiring minds want to know.