Following the Leader in DCI

[Grumpy]

It seems that most of the "follow the leader" mentality seems to be exhibited by lower tier corps, copying the style, music, programs or whatever of the top corps. For example, take the whole electronics thing...ALL the corps went out and got electronics, because the top corps had them, even though it had (and still has) absolutely NO bearing on their score since the electronics and use or misuse isn't scored. For a year or two after voice was allowed, the Cadets used a narration-heavy program; several lower tier corps followed suit the following year, until they all came to the brilliant conclusion that their audience hated it. A trend now for several years, but most annoying this past season, is the whole "pre-show" nonsense. Now EVERYBODY has to have a "pre-show". "Pre-shows" or "running starts" aren't anything new, I've been following drum corps for nearly twenty years and it used to be that you would see one every two or three years. IMO, the pre-show confuses the show announcers, the judges, and the audience-especially the once-a-year locals who make many small shows such a success. For a good number of years, the top corps played obscure music that only applealed to the judging community...the judging community rewarded it, so lower tier corps followe suit until we had some seasons where you could barely recognize anything being played. Somewhere along the line, the light bulb went on that this wasn't attracting new fans in droves and was in fact driving away existing ones, and corps went back to designing fan-friendly shows; 2011 is the best example of that since I can remember. Unfortunately, some of the lower tier corps haven't caught up with that yet and are still designing programs that are boring to the audience and quite frankly beyond the capabilities of their members. As a member of an alumni corps, one time I asked our instructors why we couldn't use a tune that BD had played three or four seasons previous-the instructor asked me how many horns BD had? and how many do WE have? THERE'S your answer.

The long and short of it, follow the leader doesn't necessarily win titles-corps designing, executing, and cleaning the #### out of their product is what wins championships. No offense intended, but I don't think the Mandarins or Pio is quite ready to pull off a "Through the Glass Darkly" program. Design a program that is within your members talent level to learn and clean, and the scores will take care of themselves. Listen to the audiences-the most popular corps and the one that gets the most applause usually ISN'T the champion.

[jjeffeory]

FTL is a myth designed to influence opinion and bend the conversation in the direction of those (particularly traditionalists) that hated the idea of props and avant garde music beating the field (and not by fractions). DC was never at risk of mass migration to FTL for the simple reason that many of the finalist corps would have had enormous difficulty in performing it at a championship level. BD did it and moved on......so everyone needs to just relax and enjoy what's next, and stop bad mouthing everything thats' new coming down the pike.

Wha What?

My comments about that show (BD 2010) was that I was worried a bunch of other corps AND high school marching bands from California and all parts East would try to emulate the design or elements of the design. What usually happens is that some high schools try to emulate some aspect of a show and it doesn't work well for them because they don't have the talent to pull it off well...

I know "I" didn't design anything. I didn't come up with some mythical idea out of thin air. This idea was simply my observation based on past history of the whole of the marching arts over a couple of decades. That's all. Maybe someone else did that, but it would kinda hard for mass hysteria to be put in place about something called "FTL"....

Also, I can definitely see elements of 2010 in BD's 2011 show. 2011 wasn't based upon abstract source music like 2010, but the design elements are similar...

...and it should be, since the staff is largely ( completely???) the same.

[Plan9]

I'm going to effectively hijack this thread because it's about to die anyway. I'll get back to FTL in a bit.

Plan, my friend, if you want to know how warped I am, I've spent the last week thinking about your phobia, not because it's you, per se, but because it's about drum corps. I've been stewing on a what's wrong with your brain - "how do I look at the world through Plan's eyes?" kind of way. I've tried to consider my positions from a "I hate BD" perspective, and I can't. I simply don't hate BD. Yet, you consistently, over may threads, have posited this position that all of the discussions about what's good or bad about the activity reduces down to a lowest common denominator that I do, in fact, hate BD.

I hate that they won. I hate their show design. I hate that others follow them (although they are dam-ed to never succeed, say you). I hate where they're leading the activity. On and on.

Worse, you contend that this phenomenon only happens to BD. That it's not "the leader", it's BD. If we have anything negative to say about BD, it's because we HATE BD! (dagnabbit!)

What intrigues me is not that I might actually hate BD and therefore believe in FTL and other theories. I know I don't hate BD. It's not that you think everyone hates a winner, because you claim it doesn't happen to any other winner. What sticks at me is that you think that the only answer can possibly be that I hate BD. Maybe I need more wine, maybe I need more time to reflect. But I don't think so. I've never hated ANY corps! I don't think I'm alone in that either.

I've considered that other winners have gotten hate posts but you continue to say that it's only BD. I don't get it, Plan.

I'm not qualified to pass judgement on the source of this everyone-hates-BD phobia of yours, but I suspect it's a disease called "Rabidius Fandomium", and I could never hold you in contempt for your opinion with that disease. But I don't know how else to describe the malady other than as plagued by excessive self consciousness and, possibly, sensitivity towards any criticism, constructive or otherwise, of YOUR corps. It's surely not that you lack confidence in your position.

I don't hate BD, Plan. And every thread I start or in which I comment is not coming from the position that I hate them. I enjoyed their drill in '10, I love, Loved, LOVED the mirrors! It was the music that made me puke, but I still didn't hate them. I didn't like Cadets' offerings of The Door and The Poor-is-Me, fireside chat show, but I didn't hate them. I love them today like I did 25 years ago.

Your positions seem to follow that same line of thinking, and I'd like for you to think of a discussion from a non-defensive position and grant me that I may simply not like something about BD, or others, without claiming that I have deep-seated hatred for a corps. It's just not true.

FTL is a definable, verifiable fact that you did a pretty good job of validating with your prior post. It's all those things. FTL is a natural inclination that takes effort to fight; the "Me Too" syndrome that marks the slow death of creativity. Amps, props, chop and bops, they are all the product of a corps naturally trying to find that mix that gets them to the trophy table regardless of who did them the year before.

In recent years, and because of the FTL attitude, I have, rightly IMO, held the "top corps" responsible for the direction they pull the activity - I had 7 corps to "hate" last year - and the MC project was an obvious admission by DCI that I was not alone in that belief. However he influenced the corps it was, most certainly, from a position of "be yourself" and not "We're tired of BD winning all the time." I'm glad this year was not replete with chop-and-bop horn books; but I would feel the same way whether or not it was BD, or Cadets, or Boston that happened to be in the leadership position of DCI corps. I simply don't agree with the programming direction. MC and the judges are working to eliminate FTL, not prevent BD from putting on crazy shows, or winning.

In fact, I "hate" the corps that subscribe to FTL as much, or more, than the "leaders" with whom I disagree. I think they're foolish for abandoning their own, unique style to FTL. I disagree, but I don't hate them.

FTL exists because of "group think", a desire to win, a crappy judging system, and lack of guts.. It takes more guts, in my opinion, for a corps to hold to it's true values than it does to buy fifteen massive mirrors just 'cause BD won with them in 2010. The MC project, I believe, is a reinforcement of that desire for diversity (while they fix the sheets to reward it better). The MC project is not the outgrowth of a "We Hate BD!" attitude.

I hate FTL and the circumstances that reward and propagate it. I don't hate BD.

To borrow a line from "Rush Hour"........"Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?"

Other than my comment about "the traditionalists HATING the idea of props and avante garde music" no one (certainly not me) is accusing anyone of hating BD! That's simply ridiculous. Might be the wine. You know G, I (actually my wife and I both) once took a personality test by Myers-Briggs which was part of a senior military training school I was attending. In it, it described how certain personalities say one thing and it is received completely different (than intended) by a different personality. It's called "our nature". We sometimes anticipate to hear certain things, then (based on previous encounters with that person) when the actual words are said, the person hearing them processes them in a way that fulfills their expectation. In short, they hear what they want to hear. I believe it is for that reason that you and other members of DCP continually accuse me of calling you haters (particularly of BD). I haven't....and I won't! Where do you get this stuff???? Your nature, that's where.

My post says only this: The OP was asking whether there is such a thing as FTL (and IMO it was reenforced by the other MC saved DC thread). I stated that FTL was a conversational tactic used to drive the conversation or bolster a viewpoint. And that it didn't exist in reality. That if you did the forensics on 2010 you could not name a corps that had violated the FTL track or "not being themselves" track....or if any, they were so vague it was indistinguishable. Then I supported my thoughts by suggesting the reason for the falderal was that the winner was doing non-standard stuff.....not the 8th place corps was doing non-standard stuff. So how do you change the presumed prevailing displeasure of the fans....you speak to the DCI directors as if they are all violating it.

I also mentioned that in previous threads some on DCP fully admitted that they hadn't seen any examples of FTL with respect to BD (of recent years), but that they were "fearing" it would happen....and somehow ruin DC. I also stated..that it hadn't. Yes, I do admit to stating that many couldn't FTL because they didn't have BD's chops, that may have been an overstatement but I wasn't the first on DCP to make that suggestion. Now, how the hell did you get all of that rant out of something so benign as my previous post? That's it.....no wine for you!

Finally, in your post you give no examples of violators of FTL. None! You mention that you hated 7 corps shows last year, but didn't suggest that any of them were trends or FTL candidates. Lots of folks don't like shows but they don't accuse them of changing the activity for the worse. That's how I started my previous, by suggesting that no one can name a violator and that FTL didn't exist.....your response continues to prove the point. I ask again.....help MC out...name the FTL violators that he saved us from......anyone.....Bueller!

Edited September 12, 2011 by Plan9

[Plan9]

Wha What?

My comments about that show (BD 2010) was that I was worried a bunch of other corps AND high school marching bands from California and all parts East would try to emulate the design or elements of the design. What usually happens is that some high schools try to emulate some aspect of a show and it doesn't work well for them because they don't have the talent to pull it off well...

I know "I" didn't design anything. I didn't come up with some mythical idea out of thin air. This idea was simply my observation based on past history of the whole of the marching arts over a couple of decades. That's all. Maybe someone else did that, but it would kinda hard for mass hysteria to be put in place about something called "FTL"....

Also, I can definitely see elements of 2010 in BD's 2011 show. 2011 wasn't based upon abstract source music like 2010, but the design elements are similar...

...and it should be, since the staff is largely ( completely???) the same.

Now why would you be "worried" about HS marching bands doing stuff that they might not be able to pull off. It's a learning process, and even band directors find things out the hard way. What they see in their heads doesn't always transfer to the field. This is perhaps the most extraordinary component of the Cadeviliers dominance.....much of what they design.... works (almost always, the first time...a few adjustments here and there...but it works). I guess I agree with you, you seem to be suggesting that FTL would be hard.

[jjeffeory]

Now why would you be "worried" about HS marching bands doing stuff that they might not be able to pull off. It's a learning process, and even band directors find things out the hard way. What they see in their heads doesn't always transfer to the field. This is perhaps the most extraordinary component of the Cadeviliers dominance.....much of what they design.... works (almost always, the first time...a few adjustments here and there...but it works). I guess I agree with you, you seem to be suggesting that FTL would be hard.

I'd be "worried" because I like it when HS marching bands have a "chance" to succeed and to entertain and excel. Give them a challenge, but don't make it so they just suck.... I've watched marching band shows for a long time, and there's usually many that try and fail. They don't have the staff to design it, the staff to teach it, or the staff to clean it. Their kids suffer as a result.

BTW... You wanna hear some avant guard music? Listen to Blue Devils 1991! Traditional yet avant guard! I mean . Go figure.... You know what? I think Blue Devils '91 cause Star '93! It's the Blue Devils fault AGAIN! ABBD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited September 13, 2011 by jjeffeory

[Tito John]

This is probably only loosely related to the thread, but in my random walk through Fan Network videos, I watched the 2000 Cadets' show yesterday. Quite a few similarities in the "hot-dogging" to XtraordinarY.

[MikeD]

Also, I can definitely see elements of 2010 in BD's 2011 show. 2011 wasn't based upon abstract source music like 2010, but the design elements are similar...

So the corps that followed the Blue Devils lead was....the Blue Devils!

[cowtown]

There was a trends for 2011 thread which touched upon this

a small obvious example

Regiments 2008 led to a lot more elaborate pre-shows, corps getting into character (horns and drums as opposed to just guards) and integration of the drum major as a character component – many of these things had been done before but we’ve seen a lot more after their pay-off then…that entire Demon bit from Cadets this year and the pre-show was very Regiment 2008…Cavies use this a lot too in Madworld which also gave use a ton of brooding, angry, Goth guards for 2011..you had drum majors involved in the Crossemen Vampire show, at the ending for BD 2010 and upside down for Cavies 2011 amongst others

Blues Devils 2008 gave us running drills and many corps now have a short running segment in their show and the Blue Devils themselves have greatly advanced this... prior, BD gave us dancing drums by way of WGI – which everyone does to the point it doesn't even seem like a trend anymore

Often it’s easiest to spot in the guard or visuals and trends almost become compulsories, body movement in the hornline, dancing guards or again the dancing drums

It’s often not A=B but A+B=AB…corps have forever been copping each others best bits and adding their own twist to it, trying to make it their own and 'original'...all arts indulge in this for cultural relevance (you can’t spell cultural without cult)

Think about those typical ground breaking shows thread and what they reaped to get you back on track... many more trends being passed around that were more subtle though and some were passed up

Trends come and go, for a while it seemed like we’d never see a rifle line and now corps were getting slammed on here for not using rifles…even more so with sabers they seemed to disappear for a number of years them all of a sudden....

I could go on and on about FLT

[perc2100]

So the corps that followed the Blue Devils lead was....the Blue Devils!

I was thinking the same thing. Also got annoyed when Cavaliers 2002 "followed the leader" and displayed many similarities to previous year's Champion. Same with Garfield in 1984 visually following the leader from 1983

[cowtown]

I'm going to effectively hijack this thread because it's about to die anyway. I'll get back to FTL in a bit.

Plan, my friend, if you want to know how warped I am, I've spent the last week thinking about your phobia, not because it's you, per se, but because it's about drum corps. I've been stewing on a what's wrong with your brain - "how do I look at the world through Plan's eyes?" kind of way.

I can explain it in your terms, it’s like the Cadet borg but expressed in a different way, no wonder it confuses you, you’re blind by your borg eyes too

It’s like all the unquestioning devotion and love you have for the Cadets (sure, you can see errors in their 2008 show now) he has for BD and his only explanation as to why others don’t love BD as much as him is they have irrational hate that blinds him

It takes a cow from the mid-west to bring the east and west coast borgs together in understanding each other but you can leave me out of the hug