Why are some corps so much better than others?

[thriving11]

Superfan,

I think all the responses you received have merit. As mentioned, the auditon process can have a great bearing on player quality and the fact that the top 5 draw 450 auditioners vs. less for other corps gives them a huge pool to draw from.

I also think staff and their practices can make a difference. . You questioned that if all staff factors are relatively equal, how can they be a differentiating factor? I would offer an analogy: if all college football coaches come from the same background - degree, playing experience and the like - why are the staffs of Nick Saban, Bob Stoops, Les Miles etc. consistently producing National Championship caliber teams? They are superior coaches with superior staffs and superior player talent.

Good question. Keep participating.

Kevin Doherty (kdoh)

This analogy is a very good one. It really nails the fact that both the large pool and the staff is necessary. Crown's brass staff would not have made a Jim Ott winning corps if they were working with Spirit's hornline, and Crown's hornline wouldn't have won Jim Ott if they were under the instruction of Spirit's brass staff. Both are necessary. So I like that football analogy, requiring superior staffs and superior player talent.

[Kevin Doherty]

Thriving,

Thanks for the compliment. I don't remember seeing your posts before, but keep participating.

Kevin

P.S. I have Competitive Inertia. I'm sitting in my easy chair not moving, but hoping for a championship. I think Boo is amplifying my silliness.

[monoemono]

Another thing - lots of people use the "lower down" (I hate using that term, but I don't know how else to say it) corps as transition seasons into a "higher up" corps, meaning the "lower down" corps are literally younger. The average age of corps like Cavaliers, BD, Cadets, and Crown is usually about 20.

I think this has a lot to do with it. Using Bluecoats as an example; I was 16-18 yrs. old when I marched, and there were a lot of members my age, and small numbers of age-outs. Lots of younger/rookie members, plus lots of people leaving in their last year/two years to march their dream corps, means a younger and less experienced group over all. The corps at that time was bouncing around in the 11-7 range. Now you see a corps that has moved up a notch competitively, placing in the 7-3 range the last several years. I would bet large sums of money that the group is now older on average, and I would also bet there is better member retention, plus marchers coming in with previous experience--an older, more experienced, more talented (or skilled, if you would rather) group overall.

So, yes, to the OP's question, I do think in DCI it has a lot to do with talent. BD wins a lot, in part at least, because they always get the best talent. Their membership is, on the whole, more skilled at marching and playing than in groups who are placing in 12th.

The answer to why or how these groups attract the best talent is probably the answer to the whole question. How did Bluecoats start attracting a more experienced membership in order to move up competitively? Was it recruiting? Better development of talent from within? Better retention of these veteran members? Bigger names on the staff? Probably all of these things, and some I haven't listed. I'd love to hear from members on this board who were there in 'Coats during their rise in the ranks--I know there are a few on DCP--to hear from them what changes made the transformation possible. Success breeds success, also, so now that the group has the look of a winner, they are getting more potential members choosing to come their way first over other groups.

[JimF-LowBari]

Started with a corps on the "Other side" that had been inactive for a season. For 7 seasons our final standing was (in order):

1 - 15th out of 15

2 - 15th out of 19

3 - 11th

4 - 10th

5 - 9th

6 - 6th

7 - 5th

Reasons I saw (was a member the first 6 years) were different staff and experience of members. Started with staff that could handle newbies to get things started but as we improved we needed staff with a different mind set to get to the next higher level. Big change for us was when another corps that had won top drums at Finals folded and we got a lot of their members. Not only did they have more corps experience the knew what it took to win which was unknown for a lot of us. Probably different world between DCI and DCA but having a large chunk of newbies sticking around year after year added to the experience level.

Edited October 5, 2011 by JimF-LowBari

[ibexpercussion]

In high schools it is not all relatively similar. For example, we have about 475 students in our high school (41 in our band winds, percussion, guard), so we do not have the same size pool to pull from. Also, we have to march 8th graders to have a respectable number of students to create the desired sound on the field. Next, we do have the proper scheduling at the middle school/elementary school level (K-8 middle/elementary school). The students at that school that choose to be in band do not get to be in PE, Art, Computers, etc, and thus we do not get as many kids who even try band. Along the same line, the school that feeds our high school has a "Study Hall" for students that do not finish their work from the previous day, or if a teacher wants them to make up a test, and they do this during the time in which kids have band, PE, art, etc. So we lose class time as well if kids have to go to study hall.

Resources are an issue as well. We have to raise 100% of the funds we use each year for travel, equipment, etc. We do not get any money from the school district to help supplement these costs. So when we travel to an away football game, we have to pay for it, if we want kids in the 6th grade to have a instrument to play, and they can not afford to buy or rent, we have to pay.

I know this came across as a bit of a "soapbox" moment, but there are a lot of issues we have to deal with at a small school. If all situations were equal it would come down to god-given natural ability and quality of teaching/instruction. All this being said, myself (assistant director/percussion instructor) and the head director work our tails off each and every year to put together a quality show, and we, IMHO, do an excellent job. We compete all throughout the fall, and win our class as a band, drumline, and guard, and many, if not most times, do better than the majority of the larger bands and drumlines as well. Not only do we arrange the music, raise the funds, and write the drill, but we give the kids a quality music education to go with it. We are just as concerned about the kids being able to achieve any musical aspirations they have after high school as well.

[Spartans87]

I think TerriTroop hit one of the big reasons right on the head - When the design process became more of an impact on the score, it separated certain groups from the pack. I think part of that is a financial ability to keep paying for those designs, and also financially able to have the best staff to teach those designs. And staff consistency is huge to the corps ability to be in the upper echelon year after year. All of these point are interwoven and important.

Just look at the up and down of Phantom over the past 10 years. I think they have had many more changes in staff and design team over that period, and have also had some financial issues to deal with. Thus, they have been all over the map in terms of placement.

Vanguard is similar in the case of staff and design changes. Not in the top tier as they had been so consistently in the earlier years, and although they have better finances, may not have had the best designs and more staff changes than their corps above them that they chase.

Now, is there a year or two that may disprove my theory, probably. But over the longer term, corps like BD, Cavies and Cadets have been far more consistent, and had less staff movement for sure. Not sure about finances, but they are never in the news on that front, so I would guess they are fairly solid.

Just my opinion FWIW!

[Catan]

^ I just have a hard time believing that the staff of the upper echelon corps are that much superior... The staff at blue knights have the same music degree's, previous DCI experience, talent pool, and a healthy budget that Carolina crown has... And yet blue knights have never cracked the top 6. They just arent up to snuff and put in so much time and dedication with an extremely talented staff and yet their programs just arent as innovative and as clean as the corps above them.

It just doesnt make much sense to me that the staff is THAT much better in the top 6 than in the less successful corps.

The Blue Knights placed 6th at finals in 2000, also 5th place at quarters in 1999 - just pointing that out.

[perc2100]

I think this is a pretty comprehensive description on why one corps is more successful than another:

http://www.starofindiana.com/drum_corps/starting.html

This is Bill Cook, founder of Star of Indiana + an incredible businessman, describing what it takes to start a drum corps. All of these necessary steps can be applied as the 'whys' regarding building a successful drum corps (or marching band for that matter). If you look at the highly successful, consistently successful drum corps, marching band, WGI units, etc. they will be very similar to Mr. Cook's model.

It's one thing to hear theories or broad discussion from those of us here on a forum. But few people have had the success building a consistently great (both competitive AND financial) marching arts group like Bill Cook. I've not read a better 'source' than this anywhere else online, and while it is the approach of starting a corps, you can very easily reframe the article as, "what does it take to make a competitive and financially successful drum corps/marching band."

[perc2100]

instruction is absolutely critical and inferred it is the most important thing, do you think that BD's staff is THAT much better than Madisons???

Yes, instruction/direction is critical.

* You need a director capable enough to manage the corps from all sides: financially, staff coordination, designer time-tables, logistics on the road, building support staff, etc.

* You need a design team who can ride that incredibly razor thin line of designing a show that is effective and difficult enough to contend at the level where your goal is (whether that's finalist, semifinalist, Top 5, Champion, etc) while also being attainable by the membership you'll have. The design team must also perfectly work together in order to hit all the necessary points of design (visual, brass, percussion, guard, effect, etc) in order to maximize success: obviously having a 1st place percussion section, 5th place brass, and 9th place guard will not be sufficient if your goal is Top 3.

* You need instructional staff who can teach the necessary skills demanded by the design. They must be apt at getting EVERYONE in their section to play & move with uniformity, have endurance to get through the show, and be able to utilize many skills at once (moving, staying in tempo, keeping in tune, all with uniform articulation and approach). Not only that, but the instructional staff needs to be able to get the members to perform: not just play music and march drill, but perform with authority and confidence.

Once a corps achieves the right staff chemistry (a director who keeps the designers happy and working well together, a design team that continually pushes the group while also designing achievable product, and instruction staff who teaches the members to perform expertly), and gets the group consistently executing competitive design, the group will attract the "right" membership. The tricky part is having a design staff who designs appropriately to achieve maximum success but is achievable with the membership they have. So many designers either over-write or under-write, making it impossible for the group to maximize achievement. But success breeds success, and if a corps is competitively successful, financially secure, and members have a positive experience they will attract higher quality members.

[Tom Brace]

Well, I believe some corps are never going to arrive at the "better" stage let alone getting good.

Here's a few clues as to what keeps a corps from being...better.

1. Fire the entire staff at the end of the year...and then don't pay them for their efforts. Yeah, that never ends well.

2. Deciding on a Program Coordinator or Corps Director someone who has a criminal indictment against them...yeah, let them clear their name first...at least wait until they have been cleared of all criminal wrong doing.

I'm sure someone has a longer list, but those two to start with should be no brainers.