Thoughts on jazz. . .

[Stu]

So, if an individual demonstrates an ability to think or express a view that is outside of those conventionally held, he is automatically dismissed as a drug addict?

Such a sad and narrow view.

Human progress owes a debt only to those thinking well outside of convention... as no innovation ever came from consensus or a conformity of thought.

"Lighten up Francis." - Sgt Hulka (Stripes)

[The Oz]

http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/on-why-jazz-isnt-cool-anymore/

Read it a couple of times before knee-jerking.

And then think.

Now. . . drum corps. . .

Chuck Naffier

Melody Fan

Hmmmm …

Did you intend, instead of the line of thought followed so far, to have us read the “essay” (I don’t exactly know what to call it) substituting “drum corps” for “jazz”?

Just to pick a random sample:

“Drum corps was a limited idea to begin with.

“Drum corps is a label that was forced upon the musicians.

“The musicians should’ve never accepted that idea.

“Drum corps ain’t ####.

“Drum corps is incestuous.

“Drum corps separated itself from American popular music.”

Edited December 5, 2011 by The Oz

[arrangerx]

Hi Jim,

The intent was to see where that would lead.

Rock music, drum corps, etc. could all be substituted as far as I'm concerned.

I just thought it was interesting to read. . . especially as I'm writing for a supposed "jazz" drum corps.

Always trying to gain new perspectives.

peace,

Chuck

[DrillmanSop06]

I think I understand the crux of his argument but to your average person, it seems...trivial?

Firstly, modernism is specific cultural movement and post-modernism is the reaction to said era. It doesn't literally mean modern as in recent. Stop nitpicking the term; it's already WELL established in art, music, writing, theater, etc.

Secondly, I believe he's claiming that the term "jazz" was used as an instrument of power by middle-aged white males to set up a dichotomy wherein the power was witheld from the musicians themselves. The jazz musicians willing adopted a term used to marginalize their power while simultaneously branding their art for others' capitalistic gain.

It's an issue of power and control of language is often an indicator of cultural power.

Edited December 6, 2011 by DrillmanSop06

[Jeff Ream]

one line gave me a future Crossmen show idea.

occupy jazz

[ML23]

So, if an individual demonstrates an ability to think or express a view that is outside of those conventionally held, he is automatically dismissed as a drug addict?

Such a sad and narrow view.

Human progress owes a debt only to those thinking well outside of convention... as no innovation ever came from consensus or a conformity of thought.

The drug addict comment is based on my experience of watching Payton play a concert for middle school/high school students. Long story short, Payton was messed up out of his mind, and played arguably the worst concert I've ever seen. I think he ended up conveying a pretty effective anti drug message though.

There are a few points in there that I feel are valid for discussion, but they shouldn't be coming from him. And a lot of that rant is just garbage.

Edited December 6, 2011 by ML23

[danielray]

The drug addict comment is based on my experience of watching Payton play a concert for middle school/high school students. Long story short, Payton was messed up out of his mind, and played arguably the worst concert I've ever seen. I think he ended up conveying a pretty effective anti drug message though.

There are a few points in there that I feel are valid for discussion, but they shouldn't be coming from him. And a lot of that rant is just garbage.

To imply that a truth becomes less valid simply because of the individual conveying the message, may also suggest that a lie could become more valid in the same way.

Truth exists independent of the observer.

[mobrien]

Those two points openly admitted at the outset, go to Fan Network and listen to Mr. Crocker introduce the 2002 and 2003 Blue Devils...watch their show, and you will see "Jazz" and "Cool" defined.

No offense, but if either of those two examples are your ideas of "jazz" and "cool", you really need to get out more (the '03 BD show was pretty much the antithesis of everything it purported to be about).

Re Payton's article, I don't find anything to disagree with. The very name "jazz" was a label attached to then-modern black music, said label given to it by white 20-somethings who enjoyed it in part because they knew their parents would disapprove. After all, it was "black music." Once white musicians like Goodman and the Dorseys figured out how to make it mainstream, most white folks stopped paying attention to the black musicians who created the form. And really ever since, there have been two streams of jazz out there - jazz that's rooted in traditions of New Orleans, Chicago, and Kansas City, looking for the next thing, and "white" jazz that uses the same chords and intervals, but strives toward organization and predictability.

People like labels because it makes them feel like they know what they're going to get. But once you go outside the predictable, the majority will get scared or annoyed (or bored). From that standpoint, drum corps is no different. SCV had some of the most interesting music on the field the last two years. The masses hated it, because it wasn't what they wanted to hear. Devils' 2010 show was musically much more challenging than the elevator music show this year; predictably, people breathed a sigh of relief when BD embraced 'easy listening" as the new aesthetic.

It's an unfortunate feature of us as a species. We like the idea of "new" - we just generally don't like it when "new" comes up and confronts us face to face.

Edited December 6, 2011 by mobrien

[perc2100]

No offense, but if either of those two examples are your ideas of "jazz" and "cool", you really need to get out more (the '03 BD show was pretty much the antithesis of everything it purported to be about).

hahahahahaha

(it's funny because it's true)

Re Payton's article, I don't find anything to disagree with. The very name "jazz" was a label attached to then-modern black music, said label given to it by white 20-somethings who enjoyed it in part because they knew their parents would disapprove. After all, it was "black music." Once white musicians like Goodman and the Dorseys figured out how to make it mainstream, most white folks stopped paying attention to the black musicians who created the form. And really ever since, there have been two streams of jazz out there - jazz that's rooted in traditions of New Orleans, Chicago, and Kansas City, looking for the next thing, and "white" jazz that uses the same chords and intervals, but strives toward organization and predictability.

This is SO true, and stated very well.

People like labels because it makes them feel like they know what they're going to get. But once you go outside the predictable, the majority will get scared or annoyed (or bored). From that standpoint, drum corps is no different. SCV had some of the most interesting music on the field the last two years. The masses hated it, because it wasn't what they wanted to hear. Devils' 2010 show was musically much more challenging than the elevator music show this year; predictably, people breathed a sigh of relief when BD embraced 'easy listening" as the new aesthetic.

It's an unfortunate feature of us as a species. We like the idea of "new" - we just generally don't like it when "new" comes up and confronts us face to face.

This, IMO is the crux of the argument. Typically people/mainstream audiences like what they are comfortable with, what they're nostalgic for, or for some even the "new" stuff that they've already heard. Artists, in contrast, typically don't like to stay in the same artistic 'pond' too long, like experimentation, and would rather fail trying something new than succeed repeating the same tired formula.

To take your closing statement further, We like the idea of "different" - we just generally don't like it until AFTER the "different" has become mainstreamed and accepted (for an example to keep it relevant to drum corps, see Star 1993: a corps that was derided, criticized, and often boo'ed by the mainstream audiences in attendance during the summer of 1993, but is now generally excepted as one of the best shows put on a field).

[Farmboy]

one line gave me a future Crossmen show idea.

occupy jazz

"Occupy DCI" could be a great show theme for someone this year, featuring pepper spray, pitched battles between "police" and "occupiers," poor personal hygiene, the whole nine yards.