Tim K Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 This thread has taken an interesting turn from television to music education, but it’s still related to exposure. In a number of cases, whether a slashed budget in schools is the cause of a music program’s demise probably depends on the individual district and the priority of music in that district. To the best of my knowledge, when Massachusetts seemed to have competitive marching units in most cities and towns, none of the drum and bugle corps, bands, or drill teams were ever sponsored by a school district. Even the CYO units may have been from parishes with schools, and most members probably attended the parish school, but the marching unit was independent of the school. I don’t know of any public high school that sponsored a competitive unit in this area that competed with independent units. It could have been seasonal. School programs ran during the school year, competitive marching was a late spring/summer/early fall activity. Winter guards may be an exception, but high school marching bands never competed with the CYO bands, even marching bands from Catholic schools. In the Boston city limits, which includes Hyde Park where BAC hailed from and Dorchester, home of St. Kevin’s Emerald Knights, I’m not sure that the public school music programs had much of an effect since neighborhood pride was fierce in those days, but in suburban towns, places such as Beverly where the Cardinals and later North Star hailed from, or towns such as Hull, Melrose, Medway, Medford, and Burlington which all had competitive independent marching units, the schools also had excellent music programs. If a school marching program is in jeopardy due to budget cuts, towns can and often do creative fundraising to save the program, but that’s an extracurricular activity. Basic music education and exposure too instruments, which takes place in lower grades, is what I believe to be essential, and often that’s what is cut, at least in the Boston area. It may be too simplistic of me to state it would revive drum corps, but I do not think it is a coincidence that music programs went downhill when many drum corps disbanded. Budget killing a program is a cop out. If you want to put it together you scrap and put it together.... there is just a skewed sort of frame of reference what it should cost to put a program together... it really just takes a good solid educator that can inspire and motivate kids... and the rest will just sort of work it out. To say that to create a program costs crazy money... cop out. Look at Tcha-degga-da in Brazil, for example... they put that together with nothing and it is building into a great program for kids who have means below even the most financially challenged school district around. I'm cool with the spending in drum corps and think it is necessary as a model... but marching band and winter programs.. come on... there are examples of great things happening that were fully McGyvered and scrapped together. It can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Budget killing a program is a cop out. If you want to put it together you scrap and put it together.... there is just a skewed sort of frame of reference what it should cost to put a program together... it really just takes a good solid educator that can inspire and motivate kids... and the rest will just sort of work it out. To say that to create a program costs crazy money... cop out. Look at Tcha-degga-da in Brazil, for example... they put that together with nothing and it is building into a great program for kids who have means below even the most financially challenged school district around. I'm cool with the spending in drum corps and think it is necessary as a model... but marching band and winter programs.. come on... there are examples of great things happening that were fully McGyvered and scrapped together. It can be done. No offense, but budget killing is far from a cop out. You can inspire all you want, but if the funds are eliminated, you're ####ed. Sadly I've seen it happen to far too many friends in the last two years. no offense, but education doesn't work like big business. Granted, at times, they both have the same lack of common sense, but that's about it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Budget killing a program is a cop out. Spoken like someone who has absolutely no idea what they're talking and has zero experience running and maintaining a high school instrumental music program... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) Spoken like someone who has absolutely no idea what they're talking and has zero experience running and maintaining a high school instrumental music program... I didn't just design or teach for different HS programs... I was a full-time school district employee.... as in when I wasn't on the filed or in the gym... I was in the classroom... all day.... every day. People seem to make a lot of assumptions, eh? Seriously... if you want to create a program, you can do it for nothing. It is easier to just give in and say it can't be done because school a school district isn't just footing a good chunk of the bill. Also, it seems that people have this immovable idea of what a program must be. Take a winter program for example... I'd love to see the winter percussion equivalent of what San Jose Raiders did in 94. Until it happened... conventional wisdom told you it would be absolutely impossible for a guard to come out with a show with only sabre and the most repetitive song in the universe. They killed it... and changed the game (if you haven't seen it... find it online). Conventional wisdom says winter percussion programs can't be competitive unless they have a full set of front ensemble gear and a solid set of specific marching battery instruments. The right arranger/composer and designer could create a winning winter percussion program out of just a stack of lumber. It is about imagination, innovation... not money. Edited December 30, 2011 by danielray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I didn't just design or teach for different HS programs... I was a full-time school district employee.... as in when I wasn't on the filed or in the gym... I was in the classroom... all day.... every day. People seem to make a lot of assumptions, eh? It's easy to make my assumption that you don't know what you're talking about based on flippant (and very broad) statements you apparently like to make. Without knowing exactly what you did as a "full time school district employee" (that could literally be a teacher's aid), I still maintain that you saying Budget killing a program is a cop out clearly indicates to me (and most high school instrumental music directors I know) that you don't have experience running and maintaining a high school instrumental music program. The secretary in our front office has plenty of full time experience as a district employee, but would have little insight into what it takes to maintain a music program. Heck, our principal has decades of experience as a district employee but has very little insight into what it takes to maintain a HS instrumental music program (more than, say, the average civilian of course but not enough to make bold statement like "Budget killing a program is a cop out" and realistically be able to support it).Seriously... if you want to create a program, you can do it for nothing. It is easier to just give in and say it can't be done because school a school district isn't just footing a good chunk of the bill. I agree with this to an extent, and as someone who has taught both for schools with districts who (so far at least) support instrumental music (albeit minimally from a financial standpoint) plus have parents who are able to help contribute AND have taught for schools that had little/no financial support from parents or administrators, I agree that a scholastic music program is what the director makes it. Of course, you can't run a program for "nothing," as there would not be a credentialed teacher running the program, so at least there would need to be money from a district to pay a credentialed teacher/director. HOWEVER, to say Budget killing a program is a cop out. is patently naive. Perhaps your time as a school district employee afforded you the opportunity to work in a district that supported instrumental music, but that is not the case in a large percent of communities. If a school district decides, "there is no budget for music so we are laying off band directors/cutting music all together," then obviously the program is killed due to budget cuts. If a teacher who built a program is laid off due to budget/staff cuts and he's replaced by a more senior director, a program can very quickly die off (attributable to budget cuts). If a district radically cuts back on budget of a program, an established and experienced director might leave for greener pastures, and the likely hood of that program diminishing is high. There are plenty of budget-cutting scenarios that would lead to the diminished quality and possible death of a music program, not the least of which being a district goes bankrupt and MUST cut music programs completely in order to survive (which a few districts in my area are unfortunately on the verge of doing). Instrument maintenance costs money; transportation costs money (at the very least, if you use carpool/parent car transportation you still need instrument transportation). Entry fees to festivals or competitions cost money. Some (most where I'm at) districts charge fees for school groups to use their own facilities for concerts (to cover custodial fees), so that might be an issue. Music, of course, costs money (unless someone is writing/arranging band charts for free, which is possible for marching band but highly unlikely for concert band season). There are PLENTY of financial issues that arise within a school year, and with zero money there is no way to pay for it all. If a program goes from "district financially supports" one school year to "district pays for nothing" the next school year (or, as is the case lately, mid-year cuts due to state funding mid-year cuts), it is VERY difficult for programs to adjust that quickly.Again, if you say you have experience as a school district employee, I don't doubt you: but that doesn't mean you have legit, real experience maintaining an high school instrumental music program. I've worked in administrative capacity with a non-profit youth performance organization, but I wouldn't for a second think that I have a strong idea of what it takes for Hoppy to run YEA. Also, it seems that people have this immovable idea of what a program must be. Take a winter program for example... I'd love to see the winter percussion equivalent of what San Jose Raiders did in 94. Until it happened... conventional wisdom told you it would be absolutely impossible for a guard to come out with a show with only sabre and the most repetitive song in the universe. They killed it... and changed the game (if you haven't seen it... find it online). Conventional wisdom says winter percussion programs can't be competitive unless they have a full set of front ensemble gear and a solid set of specific marching battery instruments. The right arranger/composer and designer to create a winning winter percussion program out of just a stack of lumber. It is about imagination, innovation... not money. I don't disagree with this, and to expand on it I think that there are plenty of people who define "successful program" by "big-budget, far-traveling, big-time staff, etc" when there are PLENTY of different iterations of success. What you reference above with Raiders is, of course, an exception and no where near the majority of most programs however, and to expect that to be the norm is goofy. The truth is most band directors are not that creative from a design stand-point, certainly not in every aspect of their program (for example, the director might know how to run a music program, is a great trumpet player and so produces great sounding bands year-long, but wouldn't have the first clue how to design a winter guard or percussion program). I took a drill design course in college, but I wouldn't begin to think I could write a competitive marching band show, let alone an innovative one. Conversely, colleagues of mine can conduct bands that sound infinitely better than mine, but wouldn't have the first idea of how to arrange/compose an award-winning percussion ensemble program. I think I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree with a lot of it. But when you throw out absolutes like Budget killing a program is a cop out. REALLY kills your credibility IMO, and diminishes your over-all point: not to mention it seemingly paints a picture of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I didn't just design or teach for different HS programs... I was a full-time school district employee.... as in when I wasn't on the filed or in the gym... I was in the classroom... all day.... every day. People seem to make a lot of assumptions, eh? Seriously... if you want to create a program, you can do it for nothing. It is easier to just give in and say it can't be done because school a school district isn't just footing a good chunk of the bill. Also, it seems that people have this immovable idea of what a program must be. Take a winter program for example... I'd love to see the winter percussion equivalent of what San Jose Raiders did in 94. Until it happened... conventional wisdom told you it would be absolutely impossible for a guard to come out with a show with only sabre and the most repetitive song in the universe. They killed it... and changed the game (if you haven't seen it... find it online). Conventional wisdom says winter percussion programs can't be competitive unless they have a full set of front ensemble gear and a solid set of specific marching battery instruments. The right arranger/composer and designer to create a winning winter percussion program out of just a stack of lumber. It is about imagination, innovation... not money. times changed sir, and not for the better. says the guy who will still be teaching until June, is married to a teacher,is related to teachers, and is friends with many teachers, administrators and school board members. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I think I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree with a lot of it. But when you throw out absolutes like REALLY kills your credibility IMO, and diminishes your over-all point: not to mention it seemingly paints a picture of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. A long post. :-) My experience working in the public schools was a bit different than most, as I had a really funky sort of role - as I was part of the time in the class room (resource English) and part of the time assisting teaching winds and was also directing the guard program. I had different roles in different classes during the day. It was a new school... was there year one, so was involved in helping build the program from scratch... literally zero. Luckily, there was incredible support from the district to build it. I was lucky enough to work with and be schooled daily by the director... who is was brilliant at being able to build a program from nothing. So, learned very much what it took to build and run a program in this environment, and though was never a director (was on that path back then, though)... I was pretty closely involved. Back to my point... with groups like Tcha-Degga-Da. They have built that thing from literally nothing. Stapling rubber on wood to make their own pads, actually trying to make their own sticks. No instruments at all when they got things started. Programs like that show that things really can be done without a budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Keep the political commentary out of the thread, please. Had to remove a couple posts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Keep the political commentary out of the thread, please. Had to remove a couple posts. If the poster would only watch the first 15 minutes of one of the TV shows mentioned for one week, they might understand fair/balanced journalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Keep the political commentary out of the thread, please. Had to remove a couple posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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