BigW Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 FTR...Pio 2010 had 54 brass 24 guard and full drum line. The weird part in DCI to understand that the scores from 2010 to 2011 were not that far off. I would put Bucs and Brass a little higher maybe Colts(ish). But again...there is no way to compare these types of corps. From the info I've seen and from watching (I usually do a rough count when possible for reviews, that time I couldn't), Pio had less than 30 brass last season, Donny. You and I know if you don't bring enough guns to the fight no matter what talent is behind the triggers, it's an uphill battle all the way! 30 vs 52-60 is pretty one sided regardless of Jr. vs. Senior. I had to think very seriously about your comment about the scores being similar. It could be that the panels were really micro-managing numbers as they moved up the contest slate and were pretty much ending up sticking similar numbers into certain points of the contest regardless to leave more room at the top so they had more wiggle-room when some of the top groups hit the field and they could make sure they had room for when they got to the corps on certain points of the bubble. That's what comes to mind here as an answer. Or, the earlier corps in 2011 were better than anticipated and pushed the numbers higher than in 2010 by the time Pio hit the field. That's also very possible. OR- the panel was more generous or instructed to start at a certain number for the contest. I would personally hope that it was a personal generosity issue, and not a 'suggestion' from higher-ups that 'numbers must go up!'. That, we'd never know the truth on. Maybe the thing to say is no really 'fair' way to compare. There, I'll be glad to agree with you, hands down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 30 vs 52-60 is pretty one sided regardless of Jr. vs. Senior. Tell that to the Oregon Crusaders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Tell that to the Oregon Crusaders. I'm not saying you can't put up a good fight, John. Boston Crusaders put one up for many years with 24-30 horns and finished a decent 15th to 17th many seasons doing that, but they had to get the bodies to get where they are now. I can tell you there's a smaller Open Class DCA corps whose horn line plays with a comparable quality to a few of the top hornlines, very comparable, but the fact they're down a significant number of bodies will make it tough. The Hurcs have been marching about 40ish horns for several years in DCA, and my guess is it's been a large part of the picture as to why they can't quite crack the top. They're just short those extra 12-20 bodies that really help in so many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 discussions, comparissons, debates, surveys,what a audiance likes or dislikes, whats tradition or not all just depends on whos participating in all of the above. You can get very different answers and results based on who takes part..So maybe it all means NOTHING...lol I think maybe it should come down to simple fisticuffs; last one standing wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerseyboy Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 From the info I've seen and from watching (I usually do a rough count when possible for reviews, that time I couldn't), Pio had less than 30 brass last season, Donny. You and I know if you don't bring enough guns to the fight no matter what talent is behind the triggers, it's an uphill battle all the way! 30 vs 52-60 is pretty one sided regardless of Jr. vs. Senior. 2010 Pioneer were very good. over 50 brass. Small in 2011 . but that 2010 corps would be top 4 DCA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishbugle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 but that 2010 corps would be top 4 DCA. Don't know if I agree with that. After watching a video of Pioneer 2010 I would put them above Hurcs too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The Hurcs have been marching about 40ish horns for several years in DCA, and my guess is it's been a large part of the picture as to why they can't quite crack the top. They're just short those extra 12-20 bodies that really help in so many ways. Brass line size wasn't the only thing keeping that corps from contending. Weak design and mediocre execution were also a major factors. You'd have been better off using Fusion Core as an example. They probably had the cleanest, purest sounding brass line in all of DCA last year. But again, the corps was hamstrung by incredibly weak design, especially musically. I'm a big hornline guy. I think, generally speaking, it's way more challenging (and fun) to make a big sound incredible than it is to do the same thing with a small line. But at the same time, I'm the first one to give credit where it's due with smaller lines. The Bushwackers were famous for a lot of years for amazing, small brass lines. I don't think they ever marched more than 48 brass at any point (I'm sure someone can correct me if that's not accurate). I know that they won brass in 2006 with the smallest line in the top 5. In DCI World Class, size matters a lot more than it does in DCI Open or DCA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishbugle Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 You'd have been better off using Fusion Core as an example. They probably had the cleanest, purest sounding brass line in all of DCA last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The Bushwackers were famous for a lot of years for amazing, small brass lines. I don't think they ever marched more than 48 brass at any point (I'm sure someone can correct me if that's not accurate). I know that they won brass in 2006 with the smallest line in the top 5. John, I think Bush had 50 or so horns in 2006. Again, someone can correct me if that's not the case. I know my old team... Sunrisers... won a DCA title in 1987 with something like 37-38 horns. And my last year... 1982... I don't think we had more than 42 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Brass line size wasn't the only thing keeping that corps from contending. Weak design and mediocre execution were also a major factors. You'd have been better off using Fusion Core as an example. They probably had the cleanest, purest sounding brass line in all of DCA last year. But again, the corps was hamstrung by incredibly weak design, especially musically. I'm a big hornline guy. I think, generally speaking, it's way more challenging (and fun) to make a big sound incredible than it is to do the same thing with a small line. But at the same time, I'm the first one to give credit where it's due with smaller lines. The Bushwackers were famous for a lot of years for amazing, small brass lines. I don't think they ever marched more than 48 brass at any point (I'm sure someone can correct me if that's not accurate). I know that they won brass in 2006 with the smallest line in the top 5. In DCI World Class, size matters a lot more than it does in DCI Open or DCA. I didn't mention FC by name, but I did mention that one of the smaller horn lines were playing with equivalent quality. You're not crazy for believing so at all. In terms of mechanics, they are comparable at worst, period. There's just fewer of them. It's really true that a smart, smaller hornline can beat up on a bigger oaf. There's no question. The problem is when you start trying to sound 'bigger'... or this, more than anything- When you have 48ish or mroe horns, there are usually enough people to cover. When I had a rough go, I knew I could back down because the other 5 guys on lead were usually strong. When they had a rogh time- they also counted on me as well. When you have 2-3 max on a part, you can't afford to have a bad day. Is this credited as much as it could or should be? Sometimes, not as much as it proabably should be. The thing is-- When you're looking at Effect, cleanliness gets you so far, but not all the way, nor should it. Having those extra bodies, if everything else is roughly the same in quality or comparable can lift you and get the gap. You hopefully have a larger dynamic scope and can demonstate a more mature ensemble sound and more depth of musicality- if the arrangements are good. From what I gather, arranging precisely for what and who they had was a big piece of the puzzle for the Govies in Class A last year. Also, I would say there are fewer real big, unwieldly oafish horn lines if any in DCA anymore. I'm not constantly facepalming and eyebrow-raising like I used to years ago about give-away mistakes out of the hornlines. Everyone knows you have to be musical and demonstrate exceptional technique and not just blow your ever-lovin' brains out nowadays. Anyhow, I really appreciate the chance to chat seriously with you and Donny. I like to think hard about the activity, music and musicianship, something my job keeps me from. For that, I really do thank the both of you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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