TheClutch Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Hard to sound good while marching, especially since they were not marching their technique well in the first place. Visual proficiency was their strongest caption besides drums. Is that feet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) Visual proficiency was their strongest caption besides drums. Is that feet? Partially its the feet.. but its all the other elements of execution of the drill, ie lines, spacing, intervals, cover, marcher movement uniformity, etc and so forth. Edited August 18, 2012 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hostrauser Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 So in your opinion are we to assume the following corps are also NOT competitive on the field: 9 Madison Scouts 10 Blue Knights 11 Spirit of Atlanta 12 Crossmen 13 Blue Stars 14 Glassmen 15 The Academy 16 Pacific Crest 17 Colts 18 Troopers 19 Oregon Crusaders 20 Jersey Surf 21 Blue Devils B 22 Vanguard Cadets 23 Mandarins 24 Spartans 25 Cascades Depends on how you define "Competitive." Let's assume Top 5. So, yes, I'd bet money RIGHT NOW that none of these corps will be Top 5 next season. What would stop them (other than cherry picked statistics from "history" ... except history that you find inapplicable)? What do you think explains these statistics? What would hold them back from competing for a title next year? Cherry-picked? Here's my criteria: a drop of five or more placements from a Top 6 corps over the past 20 years (1993-2012). Did I miss anybody? Regarding your last two questions, I'm reminded of a famous quotation: "It is not enough that I succeed, others must fail." A corps not only has to correct everything they did wrong from the prior season--just to get back to where they were--they have to improve upon that to beat the corps in front of them. In the past almost 30 years (since the implementation of the build-up judging system in 1984), THREE corps have jumped from 5th to 1st in one season (90 Cadets, 96 Phantom, 11 Cadets) and only ONE corps has jumped from 6th to 1st (88 Scouts). No one in modern DCI history has jumped from outside the Top 6 to a championship in one season (and, I think only one corps has jumped from outside the Top 6 into a Top 3 spot, 93 Phantom). Even with all the talent in the world on staff, it's just too much to ask of any corps. Championships are not built in a day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) Depends on how you define "Competitive." Let's assume Top 5. So, yes, I'd bet money RIGHT NOW that none of these corps will be Top 5 next season. Cherry-picked? Here's my criteria: a drop of five or more placements from a Top 6 corps over the past 20 years (1993-2012). Did I miss anybody? Regarding your last two questions, I'm reminded of a famous quotation: "It is not enough that I succeed, others must fail." A corps not only has to correct everything they did wrong from the prior season--just to get back to where they were--they have to improve upon that to beat the corps in front of them. In the past almost 30 years (since the implementation of the build-up judging system in 1984), THREE corps have jumped from 5th to 1st in one season (90 Cadets, 96 Phantom, 11 Cadets) and only ONE corps has jumped from 6th to 1st (88 Scouts). No one in modern DCI history has jumped from outside the Top 6 to a championship in one season (and, I think only one corps has jumped from outside the Top 6 into a Top 3 spot, 93 Phantom). Even with all the talent in the world on staff, it's just too much to ask of any corps. Championships are not built in a day. If you consider the modern DCI history as referring to all of DCI's history, one shouldn't forget that SCV was 7th in 1980 and 1st in 1981. If not, when do you consider the "modern" DCI history to have started? I need to know when I should retrospectively start feeling really old. PS: I just noticed right now that you had already made that exact same point with SCV. Sorry I hadn't seen that before. Edited August 19, 2012 by Michael Boo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordsw24 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) This thread is starting to get a bit ridiculous. Plenty of corps have had a bad season and gotten right back up, kicked the dirt off their uniforms, and turned things around right away. And why is everyone on this board so dooms-day happy, anyway? Did some of you get infected w/ some kind of Mayan Prophecy virus? I've only been a (semi) regular poster on here since the start of this season, but in that time, I have learned that DCI's complete demise is imminent, WGI ruined DCI, electronics is ruining DCI, DCI is no longer entertaining, the judging system is jacked, Blue Devils are invincible (which is bad for the activity), drum corps is corrupting to underage members, and finally, the Cavaliers, having experienced a less than flawless, stellar season (based on a judging system that is jacked, mind you), are now doomed as well. We could spend the next six months arguing why the Cavaliers were not as successful this season. I am certain the Cavalier organization will be assessing their program, staff, and operations to determine what changes might need to be made, and they will make the adjustments they believe are necessary to regain their competitive edge. As to 2012 specifically, as others have pointed out numerous times on DCP, the drill changes made while on tour would negatively impact other captions. This is a given. It has always been a curse to make major drill changes on tour. Cavaliers' guard is traditionally one of their stronger captions. No one can tell me that the talent level of individual members this season was noticeably less than in the past few seasons. It is also my understanding that the guard staff was (mostly) the same as last season's. The guard suffered, at least in part, because of the many changes made to the show, AND b/c of issues w/ the show design itself, as has also been pointed out. Staging can affect how a guard book is read by the judges, and I definitely believe this was the case w/ the Cavaliers. Also, perception becomes reality to some degree. As word quickly spread Cavaliers were having an off year, and speculation quickly mounted as to why, it is possible judges may have actually downgraded the show too much. I know this is counter-intuitive for some to believe b/c many DCI fans actually steadfastly assert a corps like Cavaliers is going to inevitably win extra points on name recognition and reputation alone in a down year. However, just like Phantom 2009 (a show btw, that in retrospect, is actually pretty good imo and one I enjoy listening to and watching), negative buzz surrounding a show can actually set up perceptions that become worse than the reality. Similarly, a really great drill and lots of visual GE will inevitably make the horn scores go up. A good show feeds on itself, and a successful show GE-wise will bleed over into all captions in terms of higher scores. It is very difficult to impossible to assign scores in a vacuum. I do find it interesting that in the same year, the Cavaliers fell to 9th in guard and 8th in brass. This actually supports either idea -- that visual GE scores bleed into other captions and/ or that changing drill mid-tour negatively affects all captions. The Cavaliers had a down year in terms of their scoring and placement, but how likely is it that brass and guard, two very disparate captions, would fall to about the same level in one year if neither of these theories were at least partially valid, excepting some type of recruiting issue. Perhaps M. Gaines taking a year off (or leaving for good, who knows) affected recruiting significantly, but I doubt this was the case. I am not outright asserting Cavaliers will definitely bounce back strongly next year, but I certainly would not be surprised if they did, should they manage to regroup, hammer out a strong show concept, and manage to design something great around it. As we've seen in the past, when the Cavaliers are on visually, they can rack up points faster than anyone. And I believe the single most difficult caption to improve on quickly is percussion, and this was Cavaliers' strongest caption all year, which further increases the changes of a quick recovery next season. Anyway, I've rattled on way too long but this thread was starting to annoy me. Certain posters almost seem like they want Cavaliers to fail and are reveling in it, and are trying to convince others that failure is certain, for the foreseeable future anyway, and that's a little sad. Edited August 18, 2012 by ordsw24 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 If you consider the modern DCI history as referring to all of DCI's history, one shouldn't forget that SCV was 7th in 1980 and 1st in 1981. If not, when do you consider the "modern" DCI history to have started? I need to know when I should retrospectively start feeling really old. I would say after the tic system went away. Before then, it was normal for corps to make big jumps year to year. I think it was common for corps to jump 10-20 places in one year 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hostrauser Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Exactly this. "Modern" DCI is 1984-present. The "dead ball" era was 1972-1983. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Oh god, please tell me they didn't stop doing the potato bar! I hate potato bar meals... potatoes are not a meal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I hate potato bar meals... potatoes are not a meal. But if you load them up with chili, bacon, cheese and sour cream, then they are a meal!!!! With some hot sauce on top for good measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I would say after the tic system went away. Before then, it was normal for corps to make big jumps year to year. I think it was common for corps to jump 10-20 places in one year Well, not common; but you do have a point. These are the first three examples that pop into my head, though there may be more... 27th Lancers: 20th in 1974 and 4th in 1975 Bridgemen: 26th in 1974, didn't even finish the season in 1975 and 6th in 1976 Kilties: 26th in 1976 and 10th in 1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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