supersop Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Wes, To an extent .. you are correct. But certain judges with power .. yes I'm slighting them. Take it or leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCI_DAD Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) I personally don't think that Cavies will miss finals, but there are comments on here that rub me the wrong way a little, no disrespect intended. To say things like "DCI won't let that happen" or to imply that politics will keep them in finals is, I think, a slap in the face to the judging community. Cavies will end up where they deserve to end up as will all the corps. We all need to stop thinking with our hearts and start looking at the criteria the corps are being evaluated on and be realistic. Corps have good years and bad years. Cavies have had an incredible run. They are having a tough year by their standards so far but let's not imply that they will be handed a finalist spot just because they are the Cavaliers. That is slighting them, the corps that they compete against, as well as the integrity of the judging community as a whole. I have been judging for 30 years at various levels and I am here to tell you folks. We are not the political boogy men people try to make us out to be. We evaluate performances based on the criteria on the back of the sheet...period, with no concern for wether the uniform is green, blue, white or maroon. (Or any other color for that matter) Just my 2 cents. Dan I don't want to down play you as a judge an your personal integrity, but when I see an adjustment in scores like I did in Chmnbersberg, PA it gives us as fans reason to doubt the politics behind it all. Maybe the Corps all had a bad night. Really when I see a group of Corps that have consistently been on arise in scores, then ALL scores drop together in one night, It makes me and others scratch their heads. I know I am new to this type of competition but I have yet to see other competitions judged on what happened at another event. I understand that there needs to be a balance with where the Corps are scored for rankings, but shouldn't DCI or the judges get the proper training before hand to know how to judge an aspect of the show properly. So what if a panel of judges likes a show better than where they "should be" slotted? If you put the proper time and training into someone as important to the outcome of competition you should let them do their jobs accordingly. I am not saying there is collusion going on to get certain teams slotted by anyone. So what if people think a Corps scores or one leg of the tours scores are inflated. Is that not the reason to have regionals with all the Corps competing against each other on the same night with the same panel of judges? I am just looking from the outside in. Edited July 12, 2012 by DCI_DAD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 DCI DAD, I respect what you're saying but, scores from night to night vary. When corps get judged by the 5 person panels is can help the younger corps in scores. Perc, Guard and Brass are not judged! When the larger panels judge it evens things out and those added captions can help or hurt. I think that what you saw was corps getting a little to high to quickly and then adjusted to the proper level. As my former brass instructor said- Don't play the numbers game, it will drive you wacky!! More importantly look at the spreads as an indicator of how the corps are doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedawn Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If they DO miss Finals, it will be decided well beforehand. If you go back and look at the recap from the first year that Madison didn't make finals, you'll see that the Semis panel was a *legit* panel who had seen the corps and been to multiple critiques with them. This was a conscious decision, as DCI didn't want to leave any room for "Well, with a better panel, Madison would have made it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCI_DAD Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 DCI DAD, I respect what you're saying but, scores from night to night vary. When corps get judged by the 5 person panels is can help the younger corps in scores. Perc, Guard and Brass are not judged! When the larger panels judge it evens things out and those added captions can help or hurt. I think that what you saw was corps getting a little to high to quickly and then adjusted to the proper level. As my former brass instructor said- Don't play the numbers game, it will drive you wacky!! More importantly look at the spreads as an indicator of how the corps are doing! I can see early that the numbers can and will mislead you. My point was that people on here say that scores are inflated in some places. Then you see the same Corps with the same full panel of judges scores drop. I understand the idea of spreads, but it just seems strange to me when I read that the scores need to come down because they are inflated and then the next show they do. I thank you for helping try and understand this more. please dont read into this and think I am mad or upset about any scores, I am not. I am just trying to get a grip on it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dciguy01 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I've seen the show a couple times and heard various accounts of it. Although the show is seriously flawed and easily their worst since '97 IMO, there is no way in hell the Cavies are missing Finals. To even suggest this is just ludicrous. They are looking at a 7-10 finish when it's all said and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I don't want to down play you as a judge an your personal integrity, but when I see an adjustment in scores like I did in Chmnbersberg, PA it gives us as fans reason to doubt the politics behind it all. Maybe the Corps all had a bad night. Really when I see a group of Corps that have consistently been on arise in scores, then ALL scores drop together in one night, It makes me and others scratch their heads. I know I am new to this type of competition but I have yet to see other competitions judged on what happened at another event. I understand that there needs to be a balance with where the Corps are scored for rankings, but shouldn't DCI or the judges get the proper training before hand to know how to judge an aspect of the show properly. So what if a panel of judges likes a show better than where they "should be" slotted? If you put the proper time and training into someone as important to the outcome of competition you should let them do their jobs accordingly. I am not saying there is collusion going on to get certain teams slotted by anyone. So what if people think a Corps scores or one leg of the tours scores are inflated. Is that not the reason to have regionals with all the Corps competing against each other on the same night with the same panel of judges? I am just looking from the outside in. You didn't see adjustments to scores in Chambersburg. You saw a different night, with different performers, and different judge's reads. This is not an exact science, and nobody is making adjustments based on what happened at another event. There are no official rankings, so there do not have to be any kind of "balance". The judges are all taught to judge what they see. The drop in scores you saw could be attributed to any number of things. Yes, in an ideal world, you would see the final numbers correspond directly with the corps improvement, and you would never see numbers go down, but the fact is, these guys aren't robots. Even if it were the exact same panel, the venue is different, the corps performance will be different etc. For example, let's say you're a judge, and you're getting ready for the first performance. You know that you still have 7 more corps to watch, so while your main focus is to judge the group in front of you, you know that you can't give that group a perfect score unless they really earn it, because what happens if the next 7 corps are better? Is it really more important that the corps your watching get an 81 rather than a 79, or is it more important that the placements and spreads are correct? Maybe that first corps didn't really impress you all that much. So you give them a 75, which happens to be lower than the 76 they got the night before. That's what you think is fair. What if the next corps isn't as good, but they scored a 75 the night before. You can't give them a 75 because they weren't as good as the corps before them. The first number that a judge puts on the board has a lot of bearing on where the rest of the numbers will fall. That's not to say that they are slotting, or that anything is predetermined. It simply means that the priority is on getting the placements correct, not on numbers improving from night to night. There is no conspiracy. Its not political. Knowing several judges in various circuits both outdoor and indoor, I can tell you that the ones I know all care deeply about getting it right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeWhoWaits Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future returns. Except in competitive activities where placement is determined by judges. It happens all the time in gymnastics, diving, figure skating, etc. Just like it happens via "slotting" in the Marching Arts. Judges are humans - complete integrity doesn't prevent at least some level of pre-conceived level/quality play into how a given performer is viewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmFlag61 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Possible scenario; A Judge views 5 Corps. The 1st Corps on the field absolutely nails it! Now, does the Judge score them keeping in mind that 4 more Corps have yet to appear that night? Maybe the answer is to make notes until all Corps have performed & then do Score sheets. I know, a paperwork nightmare, but perhaps fairer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmFlag61 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If 12 Corps outperform the Cavaliers they will not make Finals. Plain & Simple. The idea that as a founding Member of DCI and a big crowd/cash draw the Cavaliers will be granted some sort of "dispensation" is ludricous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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