Judging in the '70s

[Opti-Burr]

Who remembers the phrase "zero-ed out"?

I remember this being referred as being "written off the sheet". I'm not sure if it's the same reference or not.

[BlooFan]

On comment on the style of drill in the old days. You've got to remember that the only markings on the field were the two end lines, two sidelines, and the fifty yard line. There were no visual clues for the marchers to use in determine their positions on the field. You had to rely on the other squads, segments, of the formations to gauge where you were supposed to be. Complex curved patterns and asymmetrical drills were almost impossible to manage.

Ah yes, I hadn't thought of that, I suppose that would make it a bit harder to do some of the more complex formations with no guides.

And ouch, zeroing out sounds rough. For those of you in this thread that did indeed judge shows, what were some of the lowest scores you gave out or saw given to the corps? Either in your caption or just overall? With the more modern build-up system, I haven't seen many scores lower than the mid 30s, and even then it's rare.

[JimF-LowBari]

Ah yes, I hadn't thought of that, I suppose that would make it a bit harder to do some of the more complex formations with no guides.

The real Hell was when you were well into the season and had a show where the field had yard markers that could not be covered up (usually artificial turf). Only happened once or twice tht I remember but then staff would see forms off by up to 5 yards from side to side. Couldn't tell with just the 50 but *ouch* on the lined off field.

As for tape recorders, DCA used them for GE "up top" as far back as 1975 with clipboards on the field. We did a pre-show exhibition at Baltimore (old Memorial Stadium) and asked to be judged so we could find problems. Tape was hilarious as hot dog and beer salesmen were yelling their wares while we were on. Guess exhibition wasn't part of the "show" so they could do it. One judge started swearing about it on the tape....

"looking good, little off on the right.." "GETCH COLD BEER" "OH ##### ######!"

"Well this must be good, say must be because the crowd is responding nicely. But I can't hear a thing because of this ### #### hot dog salesman behind me!!"

[MikeD]

I remember this being referred as being "written off the sheet". I'm not sure if it's the same reference or not.

Your reference is correct...it is the same thing!

[MikeD]

Ah yes, I hadn't thought of that, I suppose that would make it a bit harder to do some of the more complex formations with no guides.

And ouch, zeroing out sounds rough. For those of you in this thread that did indeed judge shows, what were some of the lowest scores you gave out or saw given to the corps? Either in your caption or just overall? With the more modern build-up system, I haven't seen many scores lower than the mid 30s, and even then it's rare.

A corps I taught, the Wayne Monarchs, merged with the NY Greenwood Lake Lakers to form the King's Regiment in the middle of the 1976 season. Neither corps was going anywhere, but the Lakers were particularly low-scoring. At the Monarchs home GSC show on 7/18/76, the Lakers scored a 17.95 total score...the next lowest score was a 31, and the Bengal Lancers from Ct were first with a 67.6 (scores are on fromthepressbox.com). That would have been one of the Lakers last shows before both the Monarchs and Lakers abandoned the rest of the season to merge and put together a combined show for NJ Wildwood States in September.

[MsBusDriver]

On comment on the style of drill in the old days. You've got to remember that the only markings on the field were the two end lines, two sidelines, and the fifty yard line. There were no visual clues for the marchers to use in determine their positions on the field. You had to rely on the other squads, segments, of the formations to gauge where you were supposed to be. Complex curved patterns and asymmetrical drills were almost impossible to manage.

I wouldn't say that curved patterns, etc were "impossible" to manage. A little difficult and risky as there was more exposure, but not impossible. We did a lot of arcs and circles BITD. More so than most people realize today. You are right though, there really wasn't much to visually gauge on without the yard lines. But, if you look closely at those shows, you will see that it is the Guard that the rest of the Corps relies on to set up the drill patterns. That is another reason why the Guard (especially the flagline) didn't do as much equipment work. We literally had to count each and every step and turn (usually off of the 50) so that the horns could then find their person and fill in the hole to complete each set. Really, the only work we could do then were present arms (flag dips) or up and down with the flag pole. Anything else could prove disasterous. My friend likes to call the Guard the "skeleton" and the rest of the corps "the guts". Now THAT is a visual!

[flugelswerebugels]

You can get some idea of some of the different scoring systems in use through the DCI era on fromthepressbox.com:

fromthepressbox dci scores

Click on one of those years and then look for a little red box which says "recap" (its not on every show listed there)

1976 bayoone show recap

This will show you the different captions.

Unfortunately, it shows only the scores the corps received in each caption, but not what the maximum possible was in each caption. But you can kind of guess what that is by looking at the recaps from DCI finals - the top scoring corps were usually pretty close to the maximum scores in each caption.

If you look year by year you'll see how the scoring system evolved. Of course, this doesn't explain exactly how these scores were arrive at but some of the other posters here have done a pretty good job of explaining that.

Edited July 11, 2012 by flugelswerebugels

[MikeD]

You can get some idea of some of the different scoring systems in use through the DCI era on fromthepressbox.com:

Corpsreps.com has some recaps too...here is the 1971 VFW Nationals finals..shows the VFW system I mentioned earlier just prior to DCI.

1971 VFW

Edited July 12, 2012 by MikeD

[CaballarosJr.]

Wow, thanks a lot for the detailed answers! I can see the activity we have now is a LOT different compared to back then...couple follow-ups though:

Were the criteria and expectations of the corps similar in DCI to the other organizations like the AL and VFW? Did they need different things depending on the show sponsors, or was it all pretty similar?

Considering the ticks, were there different levels of penalties, or all one tenth? Like was a flag that was not spun in time the same as a dropped rifle (which I heard had to be then given to you by a judge)?

Did drill have to be symmetric? Or was that mainly because of tradition/the norm?

I'm sorry if this feels like a Spanish Inquisition, I'm just genuinely curious. You guys are a great help!

The VFW and Al had two very different criteria including show length. Have more tomorrow. But corps until DCI had to have two shows one for VFW and AL. For the biggest night in the conflict, google the phrase "I.C. Reveries Sit Down 1966" which pretty much foreshadowed an end to VFW and AL.

There were many examples of asymmetric drills way before SCV 1980. It's hard to define symetric versus asymetric.

[CaballarosJr.]

It is not all THAT different in some ways...corps still rehearse as hard as they can to clean their shows, and the designers do their best to create interesting and exciting shows for the fans and members.

The judging concepts of rank and rate are still the norm...a judge is supposed to rank the corps with each number in the order of finish and rate the corps (the spread) in those captions. No different than back in the day.

Of course, the mechanics are quite different, esp in performance as compared to the old execution captions.

Execution...the tick system...was just as subjective as the performance captions of today. The judge had to make a subjective decision as to whether or not an event was clean or warranted an error...a tick...or at a later time...did it warrant a 'group tick' that may have reached 5 or 6 tenths, if it was that bad. Consider ticks to be the 'death of a 1000 cuts', so to speak; it was still subjective.

In 1980 the best rule change ever allowed a drop to not be a deduction and allowed pick up of drops. Thus, you can either go to your DVD's or Fan Network to see how much more the rifle line and color guard contributed. Particularly look at 1980 Phantom, 1981 Cavs, 27th, North Star and Madison.

There were differences in the various systems pre-DCI. In 1971, the World Open allocated 30 points for GE, while VFW Nats had a generic single 10 point GE caption. VFW's had a 10-point caption called 'Cadence'. The timing/penalty judge would take a reading of each corps tempo at (I think) three times in a show, and if it was outside a narrow allowable range (something like 126-132 BPM) the corps was assessed some number of tenths, depending on the problem.

VFW also had an inspection caption of 10 points...a corps lined up before they went on and a judge walked down the line with the DM, assessing tenths for scuffed shoes, poorly tied shoes, marks on unis, etc...the DM could try and explain away something the judge saw as 'wear and tear' to try and avoid the assessment.

Later in the 70's, as I noted above, a judge could assign a 'group error' if a section was so bad to try and assign individual ticks was just not possible...or desirous.

I judged the 'Class B' level of corps in the Garden State Circuit...it would have been very easy to zero out a lot of the lower performing corps without a group error...and the application of the concept of 'tolerance'. For a while in the mid/late 70's, the Garden State Circuit instructors and directors tried to implement the idea of 'National Linear' for the judges...in other words...the raw beginner corps was to be judged to the same standards of performance as, say, the Blue Devils or Muchachos or 27th or...any other top national corps. The idea behind this was that if GSC Corps X went to the World Open prelims they should be receiving the same sort of score they did at a weekly GSC local show.

Well...after seeing a lot of VERY low scores at the start of the season, the corps admins decided to quietly abandon that concept, and scores went back to where they were in prior years.

I think (old memory) that a piece of dropped equipment was a tenth deduction...picking it up was a point!!!

Drills tended to be mirror images on the mid-field line, but it was not mandatory. But...here were lots of asymmetric parts to a show...corps started on one endzone and exited out the other, for instance. My corps...the Cadets...did a Revolutionary War show in 71, and the battle scene was very asymmetric in design.

Don't be sorry...wanting to learn is never a bad thing!