BRASSO Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) While we're being told that judges need time to become comfortable with the new scoring sheets. My sense so far.. albeit still only a 3rd into the season... is that the judging sheets won't change things that much in how they judge as the people using the sheets have not changed that much. That said, I am beginning to see snippets where what separates Corps is not so much performance and execution as it is show design. The Corps that I've seen so far this season, both live and on FN, all have performance execution issues. All of them have major dirt in their highly demanding visual programs for example. Major dirt. Quite visible as a matter of fact. A Corps can have TWO major collisions in the course of a show performance with multiple marchers falling, yet score very well, as their show design was much better than other Corps. Two major, multiple member falls in a single 11 minute shows in an earlier decade would positively killed a Corps in competition that night. But today, it is the show design and overall demand, complexity, of the show that is the most impactful on the sheets now it seems to me. I'm observing a recent trend here where it seems that the judges more and more are judging their colleagues in this activity as much as the young performers on the field in competition before them. Show Design seems to be very big on the judging mind from what I'm seeing the judges doing so far in scores and placements. This is why ( for example ) the talented Cavaliers are suffering right now.Its not so much the performance in the show, ie how they spin the flags, toss the rifles, play the brass, play the drums, march the show, etc compared with the others their age on the field. Its the show design itself. How well is this overall show put together in theme coherence, and demand and complexity levels compared this nite to the others. Thats what I see the judges seemingly emphasizing more and more of. Thats the trend I 'm seeing from the judges as a collective group anyway. Maybe others are noticing this too... or I'm all wet on this , who knows. Edited July 8, 2012 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rifuarian Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Wrong.... Well, maybe. I don't think BK will be out of finals. But "The show is fine! We just have to clean! They don't have the same demand! They'll peak early!" are all standard drum corps chestnuts that oftentimes have more to do with wishful thinking than they do with reality. Firebird is safe drum corps too, no matter the amount of wacky sound effects and alien green. I don't know how things will turn out in the end, but X-men and Spirit have well-designed shows with plenty of demand. Don't expect them to roll over and take their accustomed place behind your corps of choice, because they're in their accustomed place right now. Spirit is at least. We'll find out about X-men soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaseyW Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) While we're being told that judges need time to become comfortable with the new scoring sheets. My sense so far.. albeit still only a 3rd into the season... is that the judging sheets won't change things that much as the people using the sheets have not changed much. That said, I am beginning to see snippets where what separates Corps is not so much performance and execution as it is show design. The Corps that I've seen so far this season, both live and on FN, all have performance execution issues. All of them have major dirt in their highly demanding visual programs for example. Major dirt. Quite visible as a matter of fact. A Corps can have TWO major collisions in the course of a show performance with multiple marchers falling, yet score very well, as their show design was much better than other Corps. Two major falls in a single 11 minute shows in an earlier decade would positively killed a Corps in competition that night. Bbut today, it is the show design and overall demand, complexity, of the show that is the most impactful on the sheets now it seems to me. I'm observing a recent trend here where it seems that the judges more and more are judging their colleagues in this activity as much as the young performers on the field in competition before them. Show Design seems to be very big on the judging mind from what I'm seeing the judges doing so far in scores and placements. This is why ( for example ) the talented Cavaliers are suffering right now.Its not so much the performance in the show, ie how their spin the flags, toss the rifles, play the brass, play the drums, march the show, etc. Its the show design itself. Thats my take anyway. I agree with you. I realize my statement may have seemed radical, but I just don't think we should be counting any corps out of anything. Every corps seems like they want something more out of this season than the previous seasons. I can't wait to see what happens in "regional season". Edited July 8, 2012 by kaseyW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) I agree with you. I realize my statement may have seemed radical, but I just don't think we should be counting any corps out of anything. Every corps seems like they want something more out of this season than the previous seasons. I can't wait to see what happens in "regional season". I agree. Once we have the upcoming Regionals things will come into better focus as we get Corps from the West coming into the head to head competition with those that have been in the East and the Midwest. For example I have absolutely no idea at this juncture how Boston, BD, BK, SCV, Academy, etc stack up with some of the Corps that have competed back East. It may be well, not so well, or something in between. We are going to find out once there is direct head to head competition over these next few weeks however. Edited July 8, 2012 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Well, maybe. I don't think BK will be out of finals. But "The show is fine! We just have to clean! They don't have the same demand! They'll peak early!" are all standard drum corps chestnuts that oftentimes have more to do with wishful thinking than they do with reality. Firebird is safe drum corps too, no matter the amount of wacky sound effects and alien green. I don't know how things will turn out in the end, but X-men and Spirit have well-designed shows with plenty of demand. Don't expect them to roll over and take their accustomed place behind your corps of choice, because they're in their accustomed place right now. Spirit is at least. We'll find out about X-men soon enough. Sorry to come off as so abrupt. I did not mean to insinuate that your opinions were wrong, just that I've never seen a single drum corps make serious design flaw correcting rewrites and do well. This is not to say that changes in a program do not help- The ending of Spartacus comes to mind as a great change, but that the bigger the change the harder it is to stay afloat competitively. The Blue Stars of a year ago were in that catagory. As for the Xmen, you've got me mistaken. I want them to do well, I'm from San Antonio and their staff members are people I marched with and that taught me. Trust me, I want them to do well, and I think they will. I have the feeling they'll be in finals this year, but we'll see. I think some of the "cliches" you're quoting do come accross alot and are overused/overrated. That said, I get to hear inside info about BK and know that what they're being told is to make small tweaks which they're doing and clean clean clean. If you didn't watch fan network and I suggest you do, they've cut down on the synth and turned it down as well. If you listen to the music without the synth it's great drum corps and well written. Jay Bocook did a fantastic job of staying true to the original compositions which is now more evident sans some of the synth stuff. Sully wrote a championship caliber drill this year and I think once the continued cleaning happens you'll see especially the vis numbers sky rocket. BK also has the best guard and perc. I've seen of them since 2000. Those are not being scored right now. I am not saying that because the Knights have been a very consistent finalists they'll automatically overtake anyone. What I am saying is that they have a hall of fame staff that knows how to write and teach. They're gonna be angry birds come Finals Night!!! Wes Perkins BK '97 '98 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I think the new sheets weren't as much of a necessity as new judges would be. You can change the sheets all you want, but until the people working with the sheets change, things will stay pretty similar. Yeah, things are different this year, and there is some movement around. But a lot of stuff that was rewarded the last 5 years or so are still being rewarded, even though the sheets have changed. Hopefully things will change more over the course of the season into next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaseyW Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 Sorry to come off as so abrupt. I did not mean to insinuate that your opinions were wrong, just that I've never seen a single drum corps make serious design flaw correcting rewrites and do well. This is not to say that changes in a program do not help- The ending of Spartacus comes to mind as a great change, but that the bigger the change the harder it is to stay afloat competitively. The Blue Stars of a year ago were in that catagory. As for the Xmen, you've got me mistaken. I want them to do well, I'm from San Antonio and their staff members are people I marched with and that taught me. Trust me, I want them to do well, and I think they will. I have the feeling they'll be in finals this year, but we'll see. I think some of the "cliches" you're quoting do come accross alot and are overused/overrated. That said, I get to hear inside info about BK and know that what they're being told is to make small tweaks which they're doing and clean clean clean. If you didn't watch fan network and I suggest you do, they've cut down on the synth and turned it down as well. If you listen to the music without the synth it's great drum corps and well written. Jay Bocook did a fantastic job of staying true to the original compositions which is now more evident sans some of the synth stuff. Sully wrote a championship caliber drill this year and I think once the continued cleaning happens you'll see especially the vis numbers sky rocket. BK also has the best guard and perc. I've seen of them since 2000. Those are not being scored right now. I am not saying that because the Knights have been a very consistent finalists they'll automatically overtake anyone. What I am saying is that they have a hall of fame staff that knows how to write and teach. They're gonna be angry birds come Finals Night!!! Wes Perkins BK '97 '98 Yup yup! So happy they made that change. They have a strong strong strong hornline, and it needed to be heard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabadabadoo Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I may be wrong, but I think the reason why corps like Crossmen, Spirit of Atlanta, and Colts are getting these "inflated" scores is because they are performing very well this early in the season. The corps like Blue Knights, Blue Stars, and Cavaliers have very demanding shows that are still being "learned". I believe that as the season progresses and the corps get better those 6 corps may switch in placement slightly. The corps with the less demanding shows are great! They have great shows, but once the performance level becomes higher than the demand level then judges might start wanting more out of the shows. The corps with the demanding shows have tons of potential in their show, and tons of room to grow. I'm not counting Crossmen, Spirit, and Colts out - they have great shows, but I see a flaw. I spoke to a friend of mine whom i marched with while I was in the corps, and out of all the years he's been there (07,09,10,11,12) this is by far the easiest Cavaliers show he's ever performed when it comes to drill. So i'm not exactly sure they would apply to this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaseyW Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 I spoke to a friend of mine whom i marched with while I was in the corps, and out of all the years he's been there (07,09,10,11,12) this is by far the easiest Cavaliers show he's ever performed when it comes to drill. So i'm not exactly sure they would apply to this topic. He's also a 6th year vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritVet Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 He's also a 6th year vet. True, but I know a 4th year vet at Spirit ('09-'12), who says it's gotten harder every year. It's expected for you as an individual to get better over the years, but the demand from design surely can increase as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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