Field Judges

[BigW]

The effect of difficult passages is lost in the box? Well #### me for being greatly effected by difficult passages in the audience!

But I see that staging would be different to highlight these more difficult passages.

Field judges do NOT judge effect. That is NOT the intent. They analyze and evaluate performance quality.

Now some difficult stuff might be lost upstairs, but that's analysis, NOT effect...

[skevinp]

Let me take a crack at this as someone who's done a lot of shows on field, some with the old Garden State Circuit. My guess is a total of over 100 contests on-field with Bands and Corps.

I think there are some misunderstandings by a few posters. I hope I can clarify and try and answer some of their thoughts with reasonable answers and thoughts here. Whether they like the answers, is not my concern. It is what it is, and hopefully they can understand better why it is what it is.

First of all, there was a move not that long ago by DCI to get rid of the field judges. For some reason, it wasn't enacted by the DCI members, and they were retained. There has to be a good reason for it. Even DCA kept at least all of the Brass and Visual panel up top in the 90's and then put the people back, even though they still called it "Field Brass" at the time, go figure.

There's been talk in some band circuits of doing away with it- but even there, they have been retained after serious and thoughtful discussion.

Why?

Keep in mind that one of the primary goals if not THE primary goal of DCI as well as the HS Band activity is **Education** of the members of the corps or bands. The value of the field judges' input to the DCI member corps in terms of educational value to the corps membership, and sometimes the staffs-- is obviously considered very important. Important enough to keep these people, even though they could do away with them and save the costs of having to pay them. That's why I sincerely think they're being retained.

The weight of the field judges towards the total score is a fair and open subject for debate. It appears some people want it to be less of the total. Perhaps. Perhaps it's already weighted properly in DCI. Rodinaro and DeLucia made repeated comments on the simulcast that GE totals generally were dictating the overall placements as a rule of thumb. I don't have an answer, but it's the member corps who decide that weight and value. As a Judge, you do your job and judge your caption as cliniced, as professionally as you can, and at the top of your game regardless. You allow the system to determine the final results. Your task is to maintain captional integrity, NOT choose the winner regardless of what caption you judge. I think some people have a real lack of understanding on that issue.

There ARE things you can see and hear at field/track level. An ensemble judge can't see if the individual necessarily carries themselves well, or has proper breathing and phrasing technique, or a proper approach and technique to their instrument. Maybe someone's not playing at all and is just carrying their instrument. Those things are very important to the overall educational value of the commentary. Sometimes, it's reinforcement and assistance to the techs in a corps, who have yelled themselves blue in the fact about certain things- "SEE!? This guy is ALSO telling you to do this the right way!!!!!"

A Judge on the field is also analyzing difficulty as well as excellence and doing it all simultaneously. The best way I can describe it is that mentally, you're spinning several plates in your mind as you observe what unfolds in front of you. I think I'm scratching the surface of what a typical field judge is tasked to do. If I'm missing something- don't be too angry....

-how difficult is it for the performer to play and perform the drill?

-how difficult is the book itself in terms of musical analysis? You can hear a lot more detail on the field at times....

-how much variety of different skills musically are those performers being asked to do? The perception at field level can be **very** different. I can cite examples of this if asked.

-What level of quality are they performing at? What's great, what's not great, and what can they do to fix it?

-have I sampled everyone as best as I can? Not just parked in front of/followed around the hi/mid/low Brass....

-Am I in a safe place, where I'm not going to hurt a performer, or... be injured myself? To be blunt, I'm not worried about getting hit myself. I'm pretty darned tough. I AM worried about hurting a performer. THAT would make me feel absolutely terrible- so I watch out pretty heavily! As a corollary, where are my escape routes?

-And in all of this, happen to provide thoughtful, insightful, and helpful comments to help every competitor grow as a musician and to encourage them when they do well.

-I almost forgot! I'd also better stay out of the drill! No digging in too far without caution and prudence! The visual panel in the box will SCREAM bloody murder if I interfere or clutter up the pretty pictures. So, it's also why you see more of the Brass judges standing back and away more off the front sideline and nearer the track now. Safety and interference issues.

-Also, find safe places where the speakers aren't covering it all up where I can evaluate and listen. Possible, but tricky.

It's another world on-field. The staffs value someone down there to see and appreciate what the performer is going through and assess it's difficulty and quality. Jeff makes the powerful point that cleaning the individual issues will clean up the ensemble. Absolutely! More than I think some of you realize.

I read where someone believes the recorded comments are unneccesary. Well, if you were a staff member and weren't in agreement with my evaluation... I have a guess you'd like to know what my thought processes and evaluation was based on while I was listening and observing as to how I arrived at that number- that I didn't roll a dice or picked a powerball number to come up with the assessment.

I know this is a text wall- but I hope I've answered some of the concerns and thoughts on the matter from the viewpoint of someone who's done this for a long time now. I've been told kindly I'm getting to be "that age" where I'll be in the press box more often now. I started judging when I was 20.

It's a point of view few people get to see. I feel very privledged to have done so for a very long time. I see the faces of the performers, and can read their individual emotions of all ranges. I see inexperienced, scared kids in some instances at the beginning of the season and see them grow by the end to be confident. I can't explain it all other than it being a great experience in my life to have done it. A real honor.

If on field judging goes by the wayside, I can see it, too. But for now, it appears to still have some place, and real value to the Corps. I would say... don't be so ready to bury it at this time. Keep in mind the educational angle when discussing this issue. It has nothing to do with entertainment, I agree- but it still has great value.

Thanks you for this very thoughtful and informative explanation.

[skevinp]

a guy upstairs won't be able to pinpoint exactly who or where.

This is a good point.

I guess the only thing I would add to the balance of the discussion now is that the education and feedback advantages mentioned here and above seem at least partly possible without scoring being part of it.

[Kevin Powell]

Not arguing that at all. Then where is the other 70 percent going right now? I don't know the answer. I'd think a fair amount should go into the educational angle. But what is fair? I have no right or wrong answers there.

There's no doubt though that making the crowd dig what you do and show some love is worth at least 50 percent. That could be our backgrounds showing, though.

Thank you for explaining the educational side of this - that is a great walk through of the process. I actually see this as a great place to compromise. Big Regionals and Finals Week are not the time for the education judges to be on the field, the corps field work should be ready at that point. Simply remove them during these shows. The rest of tour, I would say the corps are still a work in progress and the field judges are extremely useful.

I know this can open up another can of discussion that the judging would be different and the sheets would have to be altered for those big events. That is okay, I am sure it could be balanced out.

[mingusmonk]

Thank you for explaining the educational side of this - that is a great walk through of the process. I actually see this as a great place to compromise. Big Regionals and Finals Week are not the time for the education judges to be on the field, the corps field work should be ready at that point. Simply remove them during these shows. The rest of tour, I would say the corps are still a work in progress and the field judges are extremely useful.

I know this can open up another can of discussion that the judging would be different and the sheets would have to be altered for those big events. That is okay, I am sure it could be balanced out.

Balanced out. No problem!

_looking for The Easy Button_

Why on earth would you even want your championship event to be scored differently than you had been all summer long? Probably because, ... you wouldn't. And as this thread (and the continued existence of field judges) has proved, the constituents are not interested.

[frachel]

Balanced out. No problem!

_looking for The Easy Button_

Why on earth would you even want your championship event to be scored differently than you had been all summer long? Probably because, ... you wouldn't. And as this thread (and the continued existence of field judges) has proved, the constituents are not interested.

Because in my mind, you should be getting judged against the other corps. It will never happen, but I'm all for the 1st corps on getting a 50 (middle in everything) and each subsequent corps doing the same.. next corps better? 75, next corps better than 1st, but worse then 2nd? 62.5.. and so forth. It's a competition for an ordinal finish, not really against a set of criteria imo.

[mingusmonk]

Because in my mind, you should be getting judged against the other corps. It will never happen, but I'm all for the 1st corps on getting a 50 (middle in everything) and each subsequent corps doing the same.. next corps better? 75, next corps better than 1st, but worse then 2nd? 62.5.. and so forth. It's a competition for an ordinal finish, not really against a set of criteria imo.

Did I miss the Field Judges reference in there?

Maybe you are saying the ordinal system should be finals only? Or ... something?

Edited August 31, 2012 by mingusmonk

[Kevin Powell]

Balanced out. No problem!

_looking for The Easy Button_

Why on earth would you even want your championship event to be scored differently than you had been all summer long? Probably because, ... you wouldn't. And as this thread (and the continued existence of field judges) has proved, the constituents are not interested.

So... what are those field judges teaching the kids on finals night? Absolutely nothing that they did not hear all season. The judges on the field may hinder that finals performance but I guess they can correct those issue with editing just like a cracked note in a BD soprano solo.

Within education, there is a point within every class that you have to take a test. I am basically saying these big shows are the final test.

The constituents are not interested: Yep, they are not interested in many things, compromise being a major one. Thatis pretty normal within much of society today.

[mingusmonk]

So... what are those field judges teaching the kids on finals night? Absolutely nothing that they did not hear all season. The judges on the field may hinder that finals performance but I guess they can correct those issue with editing just like a cracked note in a BD soprano solo.

Within education, there is a point within every class that you have to take a test. I am basically saying these big shows are the final test.

The constituents are not interested: Yep, they are not interested in many things, compromise being a major one. Thatis pretty normal within much of society today.

They are not teaching anything finals night. They are assessing. Same as it ever was. There is just no opportunity to convert it into a learning point for the next show. But listen to the finals tapes. They are a testament to the what has been accomplished over a season. The exclamation point at the end of the sentence, no ... the book!

So again, let me again ask, why would you want to determine your champion by different assessment standards than you had all summer long? If I take AP English, my class is geared at the final test. Everything I do is in preparation for that big AP test. And I take simulated AP tests all year long. 60 minutes for 50+ multiple choice questions, and 3 free response "essay" questions. Then I take my actual last real AP test. Just like I have been practicing. They don't swap it out for 100 multiple choice questions and no essays when it counts the most.

Regarding disruptions, the judges that are assigned to finals are season-long experienced and savvy. If there is any point at which they are least at risk to impede the performance, it is the last show of the year. How many classic "judge screwed up the show" moments have we had in finals all of these years?

And as far as making a rule change goes, DCI member corps haven't hesitated to shake things up over the years. We all know that if the designers and leadership of the corps didn't want field judges with any hint of majority, they would be gone by now. Even if it wasn't majority, we could still be seeing rules change proposals by the minority. It's not a compromise issue. They don't want to remove field judges. Plain and simple.

Edited August 31, 2012 by mingusmonk

[Kevin Powell]

They are not teaching anything finals night. They are assessing. Same as it ever was. There is just no opportunity to convert it into a learning point for the next show. But listen to the finals tapes. They are a testament to the what has been accomplished over a season. The exclamation point at the end of the sentence, no ... the book!

So again, let me again ask, why would you want to determine your champion by different assessment standards than you had all summer long? If I take AP English, my class is geared at the final test. Everything I do is in preparation for that big AP test. And I take simulated AP tests all year long. 60 minutes for 50+ multiple choice questions, and 3 free response "essay" questions. Then I take my actual last real AP test. Just like I have been practicing. They don't swap it out for 100 multiple choice questions and no essays when it counts the most.

Regarding disruptions, the judges that are assigned to finals are season-long experienced and savvy. If there is any point at which they are least at risk to impede the performance, it is the last show of the year. How many classic "judge screwed up the show" moments have we had in finals all of these years?

And as far as making a rule change goes, DCI member corps haven't hesitated to shake things up over the years. We all know that if the designers and leadership of the corps didn't want field judges with any hint of majority, they would be gone by now. Even if it wasn't majority, we could still be seeing rules change proposals by the minority. It's not a compromise issue. They don't want to remove field judges. Plain and simple.

These are just halftime shows that never perform as a halftime show.

I hear what you are saying and some what agree. For the sake of Education and Assessment, I do not agree with your testing analogy. The judging criteria would not change that much, just the basic placement of the judges. As for it being a different set of rules, the rules would be the the same. Personally, I would not want my students prepping for a 50+ multiple choice questions and some essays - I want them to know the material and be prepared to really be tested. Any kind of test - and by any means. Teachers that tell you the format of the test are doing a disservice. This is where standardized assessment test have jacked up the education system - people only learn what they have to. Want to really kick the ant hill and score these corps properly - Put a well seasoned but virgin set of eyes and ears on the corps for the big shows. This would help validate the judging community as well. Test the judges as teachers as well.

There are parts of the judging system that are flawed. This might not be one of them. It is useful for the learning process but the judges are not entertaining to watch and or march around. I simply stated a possible solution. No need to get worked up.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Kevin Powell