Pete Freedman Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Still my favorite Christmas show! Still planning on getting the tour DVD. Is that a football team in your sig? I've heard of them; aren't they the ones that the drum corps activity allows to use its fields in the off-season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 ... I'd love for the official recordings to be pristine, but the conversation about what's more important has been hashed out here more than once, and fans seem to recognize that the recordings, as wonderful the mementos as they are to have, are frosting on the cake...the cake being the live performances. This is not to say DCI believes, "Let them eat cake." However, I'll gladly accept performances as cake over nutritional performances that are good vitamins for the recordings...performances that would be Brussels sprouts ... I disagree, but I do think your view on this may be similar to DCIs and the cadets'. That is, that videos are mementos. In the age of HD, videos have become a good way of experience a drum corps performance. Remember that only a few people really get good seats to live events. So the video is a better way for many to experience drum corps, including those who couldn't make a live show, those who couldn't make a late season show, and those who got seats that significantly limited the view and sound. While it's true that the experience of the live show cannot be duplicated on video, the same is true in reverse for many. It's a different issue, I know. But this issue touches on it. Great thread, btw, and good points all around. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I disagree, but I do think your view on this may be similar to DCIs and the cadets'. That is, that videos are mementos. In the age of HD, videos have become a good way of experience a drum corps performance. Remember that only a few people really get good seats to live events. So the video is a better way for many to experience drum corps, including those who couldn't make a live show, those who couldn't make a late season show, and those who got seats that significantly limited the view and sound. While it's true that the experience of the live show cannot be duplicated on video, the same is true in reverse for many. It's a different issue, I know. But this issue touches on it. Great thread, btw, and good points all around. I also think that in this day/age of wide-spread media, it is a detriment to move away from presenting a corps' total presentation. The assumption seems to be: * design choices should be made based solely on the heat of the moment/performance * perhaps the majority of people who buy Fan Network, DVD's/Blu-rays, and CD's are the same people who attend the shows. This may or may not be true, but that is seemingly the attitude, or at the very least the is the perception that I have. I think some these design choices can EASILY be accomplished in ways that do NOT violate sync rights. Cadets could've easily had someone else record the same voice-over/narration and get the point/effect across and still have 100% of their show in compliance. Same with Cavaliers last year (and I have heard that Cavaliers DID have a plan B to be compliant but chose instead to keep the sample, knowing it would have to be edited after the fact). Obviously, this is not the answer all the time. Scouts chose to use Empire State of Mind, and clearly they could do nothing to change that issue (short of using a different song). Same thing with Crown last year. While I still think there is a fundamental philosophical issue/debate to be had, clearly DCI designers, and DCI themselves seemingly choose live performance effect over residual media/archive. Only time will tell if that is the best option, and while having Scouts 2011 show massively incomplete on my Blu-ray helped me make the decision to not purchase this year's Blu-rays, plenty of others don't seem to have a problem with it. We are all hoping that this does not become a wide-spread thing, or a "norm" in the activity, and more just an occasional anomaly. We'll see **NOTE: I'm not soothsaying. I honestly don't know which side of the debate I fall under. As a consumer I am more inclined to want corps to try to accommodate sync rights when possible, such as what I suggested above. However, as an instructor and occasional designer, I understand corps not wanting to compromise their vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Still my favorite Christmas show! Still planning on getting the tour DVD. That's a tough one for me. I'll let it sit for awhile, and then compare it to Cavaliers 1991 and see which I prefer. Right now I lean towards Cavaliers 1991, but obviously I've had a bit more time with that show. It's also not as on-the-nose as Cadets 2012. But Cadets is a good show, and I suspect once the Christmas season rolls around I will enjoy it a lot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) I disagree, but I do think your view on this may be similar to DCIs and the cadets'. That is, that videos are mementos. In the age of HD, videos have become a good way of experience a drum corps performance. Remember that only a few people really get good seats to live events. So the video is a better way for many to experience drum corps, including those who couldn't make a live show, those who couldn't make a late season show, and those who got seats that significantly limited the view and sound. While it's true that the experience of the live show cannot be duplicated on video, the same is true in reverse for many... I also think that in this day/age of wide-spread media, it is a detriment to move away from presenting a corps' total presentation... Though I've been defending the Cadets choice (and rights), would it surprise you to learn I agree with most of these posts? Where we might depart has to do with a different legacy. Of course we can always substitute original content for audio clips. But why in a YouTube world where everything is floated for the world to see for free? Why should drum corps limit itself where others aren't? I'm the last one who will argue against copyright and the rights of artists and publishers to collect the commercial benefit of their creative efforts. That's not what's at issue here. A few seconds of audio from Charlie Brown's Christmas in a drum corps show isn't going to erode the commercial opportunity for that franchise. Blocking drum corps from leveraging mainstream media, on the other hand, will only drive our activity further into obscurity and irrelevance. Drum corps ought to push the envelope on this. We're not very far out on that limb. As I mentioned previously, YouTube is rife with extended video of Charlie Brown's Christmas. What standard could possibly contemplate that a few seconds of just the audio represent an infringement where several minutes of audio and video don't? What jury could possibly believe that our narrower niche - marching band - is a threat to a franchise as huge as Peanuts. Drum corps and similarly situated arts programs need to make an issue of this if only for clarity. I get the risk issue. I think I was the one who outlined it above. What we need to keep in mind about risk is two things. One, the risk isn't absolute and likely isn't great. Two, there's risk in not defending our rights in this regards. Drum corps can't afford to be out of sync with society. And in today's world of art and even music, that includes clips. Sync up. Or check out. HH Edited October 10, 2012 by glory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRacer Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 No vocals (sampled or otherwise) = no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 The thing about this is...corps get clearance in terms of permissions to arrange in advance of the season, but getting synch rights often takes what seems half of forever, no matter how actively securing the rights is being pursued. What happened with "Empire State of Mind" was an extreme anomaly; one that I wrote about here some months back. (The State Farm commercial no one could have seen coming prior to the 10th anniversary of 9/11.) Normally, getting the synch rights is pretty much a given once rights to arrange are granted, but it still takes time...lots and lots of time. Unless all corps perform original compositions or public domain music, instances that come out of the blue to throw a monkey wrench in the recordings are going to continue to happen. And I don't hear a groundswell of demand for those kind of creative restrictions. I'd love for the official recordings to be pristine, but the conversation about what's more important has been hashed out here more than once, and fans seem to recognize that the recordings, as wonderful the mementos as they are to have, are frosting on the cake...the cake being the live performances. This is not to say DCI believes, "Let them eat cake." However, I'll gladly accept performances as cake over nutritional performances that are good vitamins for the recordings...performances that would be Brussels sprouts; because I don't like Brussels sprouts and I seriously think I need to go to bed now. And I'm also thankful there is no cake in this house. Okay, I'm really going to go to bed now. Carry on. Unfortunately, not all of us get to see finals live. I'd love to see that performance as it was, no edits that night. I thank God every day I got 2008 before they re-cut the tape for Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I also think that in this day/age of wide-spread media, it is a detriment to move away from presenting a corps' total presentation. The assumption seems to be: * design choices should be made based solely on the heat of the moment/performance * perhaps the majority of people who buy Fan Network, DVD's/Blu-rays, and CD's are the same people who attend the shows. This may or may not be true, but that is seemingly the attitude, or at the very least the is the perception that I have. I think some these design choices can EASILY be accomplished in ways that do NOT violate sync rights. Cadets could've easily had someone else record the same voice-over/narration and get the point/effect across and still have 100% of their show in compliance. Same with Cavaliers last year (and I have heard that Cavaliers DID have a plan B to be compliant but chose instead to keep the sample, knowing it would have to be edited after the fact). Obviously, this is not the answer all the time. Scouts chose to use Empire State of Mind, and clearly they could do nothing to change that issue (short of using a different song). Same thing with Crown last year. While I still think there is a fundamental philosophical issue/debate to be had, clearly DCI designers, and DCI themselves seemingly choose live performance effect over residual media/archive. Only time will tell if that is the best option, and while having Scouts 2011 show massively incomplete on my Blu-ray helped me make the decision to not purchase this year's Blu-rays, plenty of others don't seem to have a problem with it. We are all hoping that this does not become a wide-spread thing, or a "norm" in the activity, and more just an occasional anomaly. We'll see **NOTE: I'm not soothsaying. I honestly don't know which side of the debate I fall under. As a consumer I am more inclined to want corps to try to accommodate sync rights when possible, such as what I suggested above. However, as an instructor and occasional designer, I understand corps not wanting to compromise their vision. and I see in WGI people doing more and more what you suggest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickhaltsforlife Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Unfortunately, not all of us get to see finals live. I'd love to see that performance as it was, no edits that night. I thank God every day I got 2008 before they re-cut the tape for Phantom Me dos. I thought I lost the disc once and went into freakout mode. I have friends who are extrememly jealous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Though I've been defending the Cadets choice (and rights), would it surprise you to learn I agree with most of these posts? Where we might depart has to do with a different legacy. Of course we can always substitute original content for audio clips. But why in a YouTube world where everything is floated for the world to see for free? Why should drum corps limit itself where others aren't? Youtube clips that violate copyright are chased down. There is no legal protection in Youtube; I have often seen a video removed due to copyright violation. And since the 'publisher' is a thousand individuals it's impossible for the copyright holder to chase down every one. However, YouTube has been pressured into blocking videos when asked. DCI, of course is a large, stationary target. Hey, life isn't fair. I'm the last one who will argue against copyright and the rights of artists and publishers to collect the commercial benefit of their creative efforts. That's not what's at issue here. A few seconds of audio from Charlie Brown's Christmas in a drum corps show isn't going to erode the commercial opportunity for that franchise. Indeed, the irony is that it can only promote their brand. They should be paying the Cadets. But again, life isn't fair. Blocking drum corps from leveraging mainstream media, on the other hand, will only drive our activity further into obscurity and irrelevance. Oh, now. (How's that for an argument? :-) Drum corps ought to push the envelope on this. We're not very far out on that limb. As I mentioned previously, YouTube is rife with extended video of Charlie Brown's Christmas. What standard could possibly contemplate that a few seconds of just the audio represent an infringement where several minutes of audio and video don't? Both do. Ours is worth chasing down; Apparently YouTube's isn't. (Although they may have reached an agreement with the poster and/or YouTube) What jury could possibly believe that our narrower niche - marching band - is a threat to a franchise as huge as Peanuts. They wouldn't be asked to necessarily. They would only be asked whether a violation occurred. Drum corps and similarly situated arts programs need to make an issue of this if only for clarity. I get the risk issue. I think I was the one who outlined it above. What we need to keep in mind about risk is two things. One, the risk isn't absolute and likely isn't great. Two, there's risk in not defending our rights in this regards. Are you suggesting that DCI try to create a new legal precedent allowing this kind of use? I like it... I would think that would be prohibitively difficult, but it's an intriguing idea... Drum corps can't afford to be out of sync with society. And in today's world of art and even music, that includes clips. Sync up. Or check out. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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