actucker Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I would ask anyone who complains about this topic, exactly how many world class shows have you planned and put into practice? Its not as easy as one might think. Planning a show two years in advance isn't just impractical, its impossible. You might have concepts in mind. You might even have esthetics or thematic material in mind. But until you can be certain of who the designers will be, and what kind of talent level you will draw, you can't plan any specifics, much less get rights to anything. Often you have to take into account the results of the previous year to plan the next. I know I do with the groups I teach. These shows are the most complex and detailed of any shows that go onto the field, so even with the absolute best involved, its impossible to plan that far in advance. As for details missing, there are several reasons why. Guard costumes are obvious. A corps can and will likely be filling guard holes well into every days, and even if the guard is perfectly set, your typical costume company will need a full month to turn measurements into costumes. With most corps having around a month of every days, you can see why they might not quite make the deadlines. Props have to be built. That takes man power, which means you're at the mercy of the schedule of the people who will do that building. Some design things you really just can't make a call on until you get a chance to see it on the field. Often times, sound design is affected by the sonic environment, which is why much of that stuff is put in in the second or third week of the season, once the designer has had a chance to get several reads on the show. The fact is, these are huge productions, and take time to put in place. As for the judging, you have to judge what you see on the field, whether it is 5 minutes long, or 10 minutes long. You can't assume a show is or isn't complete. Whatever a corps performs is their show for that day. If one corps' 5 minute show is better than another corps' 10 minute show, then that's your winner for that day. Its not about who has the most content on the field. Incomplete shows have been the norm at the beginning of the season since I've been following drum corps. Its a minor inconvenience at worst. Then again, it wouldn't be DCP if someone weren't complaining and telling someone that they aren't doing their job correctly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) I would ask anyone who complains about this topic, exactly how many world class shows have you planned and put into practice? Its not as easy as one might think. Planning a show two years in advance isn't just impractical, its impossible. You might have concepts in mind. You might even have esthetics or thematic material in mind. But until you can be certain of who the designers will be, and what kind of talent level you will draw, you can't plan any specifics, much less get rights to anything. Often you have to take into account the results of the previous year to plan the next. I know I do with the groups I teach. These shows are the most complex and detailed of any shows that go onto the field, so even with the absolute best involved, its impossible to plan that far in advance. As for details missing, there are several reasons why. Guard costumes are obvious. A corps can and will likely be filling guard holes well into every days, and even if the guard is perfectly set, your typical costume company will need a full month to turn measurements into costumes. With most corps having around a month of every days, you can see why they might not quite make the deadlines. Props have to be built. That takes man power, which means you're at the mercy of the schedule of the people who will do that building. Some design things you really just can't make a call on until you get a chance to see it on the field. Often times, sound design is affected by the sonic environment, which is why much of that stuff is put in in the second or third week of the season, once the designer has had a chance to get several reads on the show. The fact is, these are huge productions, and take time to put in place. As for the judging, you have to judge what you see on the field, whether it is 5 minutes long, or 10 minutes long. You can't assume a show is or isn't complete. Whatever a corps performs is their show for that day. If one corps' 5 minute show is better than another corps' 10 minute show, then that's your winner for that day. Its not about who has the most content on the field. Incomplete shows have been the norm at the beginning of the season since I've been following drum corps. Its a minor inconvenience at worst. Then again, it wouldn't be DCP if someone weren't complaining and telling someone that they aren't doing their job correctly. Very extensive explanations given here on why there are so many incompletes. One question : where were you when I was in school and my work wasn't going to be ready in time, and I needed someone like you to help me convince my teacher not to take me down a few grades and give me an " incomplete " ? You're good at this. Very good, imo. Edited September 29, 2012 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 ...and of course it is all about you, the fan, right? What about the members? They are the ones going out there 8-12 hours a day rehearsing the same 12 minutes of show. What about their need to see growth in what they are doing? What about their desire and excitement as a show develops and grows into something they are excited to share with the crowd? Not saying your points don't have some validity, but keep in mind, maybe the members feelings and wishes play into this too. I know in the two years I marched Blue Devils I had way more fun in '84 when we were getting our rear end handed to us most of the season but still worked, changed, added and then coming within a tenth at championships of winning it all than I did in '82 when we went undefeated with a more or less complete show all year. It's not always all about you. Just my $.02. Dan Are you saying that if you let the members of each corps vote, that some corps memberships would vote to take the field with incomplete shows at the beginning of the season instead of complete ones? really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple Forte Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I would ask anyone who complains about this topic, exactly how many world class shows have you planned and put into practice? Its not as easy as one might think. Planning a show two years in advance isn't just impractical, its impossible. You might have concepts in mind. You might even have esthetics or thematic material in mind. But until you can be certain of who the designers will be, and what kind of talent level you will draw, you can't plan any specifics, much less get rights to anything. Often you have to take into account the results of the previous year to plan the next. I know I do with the groups I teach. These shows are the most complex and detailed of any shows that go onto the field, so even with the absolute best involved, its impossible to plan that far in advance. As for details missing, there are several reasons why. Guard costumes are obvious. A corps can and will likely be filling guard holes well into every days, and even if the guard is perfectly set, your typical costume company will need a full month to turn measurements into costumes. With most corps having around a month of every days, you can see why they might not quite make the deadlines. Props have to be built. That takes man power, which means you're at the mercy of the schedule of the people who will do that building. Some design things you really just can't make a call on until you get a chance to see it on the field. Often times, sound design is affected by the sonic environment, which is why much of that stuff is put in in the second or third week of the season, once the designer has had a chance to get several reads on the show. The fact is, these are huge productions, and take time to put in place. As for the judging, you have to judge what you see on the field, whether it is 5 minutes long, or 10 minutes long. You can't assume a show is or isn't complete. Whatever a corps performs is their show for that day. If one corps' 5 minute show is better than another corps' 10 minute show, then that's your winner for that day. Its not about who has the most content on the field. Incomplete shows have been the norm at the beginning of the season since I've been following drum corps. Its a minor inconvenience at worst. Then again, it wouldn't be DCP if someone weren't complaining and telling someone that they aren't doing their job correctly. So...I think what a lot of longtime fans (including myself) is troubled by is today's corps seem very content with incomplete shows and incomplete attire (guard uniforms). It's like an 'ah well...didn't get it done it time...no biggie'. I don't remember seeing to many incomplete shows at the beginning of the season back a handful of years ago. One might say 'well..back in the 80's n 90's shows were not as complex. Well..that might be true but today people have all kinds of technology (tools) to literally create a virtual version of a show that can viewed from multiple people from all around the world on the internet....pretty powerful. As far as color guards assembling later due to WGI...well..ya know what...maybe someone has to decide between the two. If your in WGI...and can't commit to a corps until after WGI season...than maybe you have to sit on the sideline for that coming drum corps season. Everybody wants their cake and to eat it to. Back in my HS....we were not allowed to be in multiple sports (or in some cases activities) during the same season....it was a rule..because committing for both wasn't viable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 apparently I got negatives for suggesting that marching members want to perform their full show. interesting. Some people marched in corps with very different philosophies, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Very extensive explanations given here on why there are so many incompletes. One question : where were you when I was in school and my work wasn't going to be ready in time, and I needed someone like you to help me convince my teacher not to take me down a few grades and give me an " incomplete " ? You're good at this. Very good, imo. Have you ever considered that maybe they are in fact hitting their deadlines, and that their production schedule is based on what is realistically possible, and not what some fans on a web board think they should be doing? Its been a while since I was a student, but if I remember right, you weren't expected to get all of your school work done at the beginning of the semester. When was the last show you saw at finals that wasn't complete? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 So...I think what a lot of longtime fans (including myself) is troubled by is today's corps seem very content with incomplete shows and incomplete attire (guard uniforms). It's like an 'ah well...didn't get it done it time...no biggie'. I don't remember seeing to many incomplete shows at the beginning of the season back a handful of years ago. One might say 'well..back in the 80's n 90's shows were not as complex. Well..that might be true but today people have all kinds of technology (tools) to literally create a virtual version of a show that can viewed from multiple people from all around the world on the internet....pretty powerful. As far as color guards assembling later due to WGI...well..ya know what...maybe someone has to decide between the two. If your in WGI...and can't commit to a corps until after WGI season...than maybe you have to sit on the sideline for that coming drum corps season. Everybody wants their cake and to eat it to. Back in my HS....we were not allowed to be in multiple sports (or in some cases activities) during the same season....it was a rule..because committing for both wasn't viable. I remember seeing early season shows even as far back as the 90s where drill wasn't complete, or guard work was missing, or props hadn't been added. As for WGI, corps specifically don't hold guard camps from Auditions until April. Its not like they just have people missing all the time. Drum corps and indoor season are not at the same time. Committing to both is perfectly possible, that's why it happens all the time. Even without guards choosing not to have camps in the winter (keep in mind most world class guard staffs are also teaching winter guard) corps are still going to be finalizing rosters as last as May. The costume timeline just isn't realistic otherwise. Again, I'll ask anyone who's complaining about this how many world class drum corps shows they've designed and organized. Haven't gotten an answer on that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Not having a fully realized show is something I can understand as changes are made and details are added throughout the season. Not having drill, music, and most of your flags/costumes is not acceptable. Points should definitely reflect the lack of design. Edited September 30, 2012 by chaos001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Detweiler Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Are you saying that if you let the members of each corps vote, that some corps memberships would vote to take the field with incomplete shows at the beginning of the season instead of complete ones? really? Nope, not at all. I am just saying that it's not always about you. (In fact, it seldom is) The amount of work that goes into putting one of these shows together is staggering. It is a fluid process that takes place over the course of time using judge input from early shows as well as other factors. I find it difficult to believe that, even at the very first show of the year, people were not entertained by what they saw and heard. If you don't feel you got your money's worth then you can voice your displeasure by not going next year. ...and by the way, if you did pole the corps memberships regarding this subject, I bet that the veteran members, the ones that understand the process and the progression of growth that takes place over the course of the season, would vote for an incomplete show early on. I will always try to look at things from the marching members perspective first. They are the ones out there day in and day out making it happen. I happen to feel that "it" is about them, first and foremost. Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrangerx Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Seems to me that show music should be planned 2 years in advance to avoid licensing issues. It's probably not entirely practical, but considering some the copyright problems of recent years, it may be a good way to go. Not practical. New music comes out all the time... Staff and writers do not get rehired... Creativity and inspiration do not occur on a schedule... We do what we can -- but to be a slave to DVD and CD sales is to misunderstand what this thing is all about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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