glory Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) But what you are suggesting (DCI to essentially say "to hell with it," program whatever they want, not edit their merchandise and excise content corps didn't get legal clearance to get, and then hope no one calls them out on it) is unlikely to happen. DCI has made it pretty clear that they intend to be overly cautious... My sense is DCI is being entirely reactive when it should be taking a broader look at the issue, its ramification and opportunities. That said, I agree they are being overly cautious. And contrary to what you suggest I'm suggesting, I'm actually suggesting DCI be more agressive by taking a stand that ultimately suits its long-term interest better. HH Edited November 7, 2012 by glory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) I would rather have DCI remove a few seconds from the hundreds of minutes of the recordings, than to risk a law suit, that win or lose, would likely send DCI into bankruptcy. It's losing the battle to win the war. A lawsuit against marching band over few seconds of Charlie Brown audio in a Christmas show? Can't see it. Empire State? A cease and desist letter to Madison/DCI. That's a possibility. The bigger issue (risk?) for DCI isn't lawsuits. It's maintaining a consist standard around copyright as it too seeks to enforce its own rights for its own creative property. My view is DCI hasn't been consistent - but that's for later. HH Edited November 7, 2012 by glory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashevillemurphy Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Gotta say...I normally never purchase Vol 2 of the World Class DVDs...I did this year to get Surf...and now find that possibly the most entertaining portion of the show is blacked out? Wish I'd know that ahead of time. Either way...it apperars in the future, if there are shows I really enjoy, I might have to permanently borrow mid-season amateur videos...that is if I want to make sure I get the whole show...very disappointing...not the way I wanted this to go. DCI will refund your money if you are not "completely satisfied" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 DCi doesnt have Paramounts bank accounts or lawyers either No offense but you're way off on this one. The issue isn't Paramount any more than it's DCI. It's about the rights owner and the potential risk. In this case, it's about how Anheuser-Busch with all its potential clout asked only for future remediation. If Busch does little more than sending a letter to Paramount saying "next time do better," then who would actually sue a bunch of marching bands? They won't even be able to figure out why the fans didn't sit on the other side at that football game. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) A lawsuit against marching band over few seconds of Charlie Brown audio in a Christmas show? Can't see it. Empire State? A cease and desist letter to Madison/DCI. That's a possibility. HH Also see a possiblity that if a copyright owner has to send a "cease & desist" to an entity (here DCI) it might be harder for that entity to work with that copyright holder in the future. Kinda like getting flagged when you're late with a payment, the company is less willing to work with you in the future. IOW DCI fights this the fans could see DCI as being on their side...... and the copyright holders could see DCI as "that pain in the ###". Edited November 7, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 While I admire the effort, the paraphrase or even the quote rendered precisely but by someone else as you suggest isn’t the icon. So what? No drum corps arrangement is either. So if the Cadets could not get Dean Martin to sing (darned age rule), then why bother using the music in the first place? You’re suggesting something akin to performing a Christmas show with all original music that “captures the spirit of Christmas music” without actually performing that music. Sorry, but without Jingle Bells and the other iconic Christmas tunes, there’s an empty box under the tree. That’s the point of the actual Charlie Brown clip. It is a Christmas icon in our culture today. You are comparing apples to oranges. The original recorded audio of a vocal clip from a TV show is no more/less iconic than the original audio of a song from the album of a particular artist. Drum corps is about re-arranging iconic music so that their own members can perform it. We do not simply copy a Dean Martin album, play it over the speakers and send the horns and drums home. Why should copyrighted vocal clips be treated any differently? DCI is a youth educational activity. It should be educating participants in how to arrange, perform and respect copyright, not how to take the easy way out and copy the work of others. “Good Grief” might suffice if the show were about Charlie Brown. It wasn’t. It was about Christmas. We’re long past the days where Christmas revolves solely around hearth and home or even church. We’re long past the days where music and a few paintings were the only media in which Christmas lived. Film and television have created a new set of icons. Those are what the Cadets were after. And they’re fair game. Only if they are fair use - and you have not shown how DCI and their corps can resolve that question. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 A lawsuit against marching band over few seconds of Charlie Brown audio in a Christmas show? Can't see it. So DCI should just let it go because maybe they will not get sued? I bet that suits the Cadets just fine. After all, the circuit they and the rest of the G7 will flee to is already incorporated. They have their plan B for when DCI gets sued out of existence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 ... The original recorded audio of a vocal clip from a TV show is no more/less iconic than the original audio of a song from the album of a particular artist. Drum corps is about re-arranging iconic music so that their own members can perform it. We do not simply copy a Dean Martin album, play it over the speakers and send the horns and drums home. Why should copyrighted vocal clips be treated any differently? ... That's the 1972 view of music and media. I dare say it's not the 2012 reality. It surely won't sync with 2052. Drum corps music today ought still emphasize creative arrangements for brass and drums of standards and new works. You are right about that. Going forward won't just be that, however. Technology has delivered new opportunities. Drum corps will ride the wave like everything else that doesn't want to be an anachronism. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashevillemurphy Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 A response from DCI: Thank you for your order of Drum Corps International merchandise. I regret that you feel mislead about the contents of the 2012 World Championships Volume I DVD. I can assure you that it has never been, nor will ever be the intention of Drum Corps International to mislead our customers. If you are unhappy with the service that has been provided, and product that will be delivered, I will offer you a complete refund. We truly value the loyal and dedicated fans that continue to support Drum Corps International and its member organizations, so I encourage you to read further to understand how we work to deliver the highest quality products possible. First and foremost, as a former marching member, I am a still fan myself. We take great pride in the tremendous effort that goes into every aspect of the production of our audio and video products to reflect the exceptional achievements by the performers on the field. One of the aspects of the production that requires great attention is licensing and compliance. You are incorrect to assume that Drum Corps International does not pay synchronization rights for its products. In fact, every single piece performed by the corps not classified as public domain is paid a royalty if permission is granted. This year's Volume I DVD/Blu-ray contains 67 compositions, 10 of which are categorized as public domain. Requests are sent out to all appropriate publishers, composers, and other rights holders during a process that generally spans seven months by Drum Corps International staff and it's contracted professional licensing firm. While I will not provide any actual figures, I can nearly assure you would be floored by the line item in our annual budget to cover costs associated with permissions, concert and new media rights, mechanical and synchronization rights, and now with the latest addition of master use rights. All that goes to say that we work to secure the rights to every piece performed by the corps right up until the last moment when production deadlines require decisions to be made in order to make our mid-November delivery goals. In some instances we have received denials, many times we receive zero response at all, and only once in my ten years of being responsible for these productions has a license been granted, but then not used because of its royalty rate- in that particular case the corps was aware of the issue before the season, but chose to perform the title regardless. Again, I regret that you feel mislead, but I stand behind our processes and procedures to make the best products available to our members, parents, and fans. Please feel free to contact me if you wish to proceed with a refund or would like to discuss anything further about this or other related topics discussion on the forum boards. I hope that we can continue to serve your drum corps needs in the future. -- Thank you for supporting Drum Corps International and its member organizations. Ric Oberlin Operations Director Drum Corps International Marching Music's Major League™ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 That's the 1972 view of music and media. I dare say it's not the 2012 reality. It surely won't sync with 2052. That is how you defend the use of clips from 1965? Tell you what - come 2052, when the law catches up with technology and clarifies that murky "fair use" issue, then let drum corps use the easy button as they wish. Meanwhile, you still have not given a solution to the 2012 reality. Drum corps music today ought still emphasize creative arrangements for brass and drums of standards and new works. You are right about that. Going forward won't just be that, however. Technology has delivered new opportunities. And like most things, what technology giveth, law taketh away. Drum corps will ride the wave like everything else that doesn't want to be an anachronism. Anachronism sells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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