"Tour of Champions" 2013

[Slingerland]

NASCAR owes a service to both Jimmie Johnson, 5-time NASCAR top-tier sanctioned Sprint Cup Points Grand Champion who also just won the Daytona 500, as well as Jimmy Zacharias, who finished last (500th in points) in the 2012 lowest-tiered NASCAR sanctioned All American Tour. Owed an equal service? Nope. But both deserve 'a' service from NASCAR because both engage in NASCAR sanctioned events.

NASCAR is a privately-owned company, not a non-profit, and they charge a fee for drivers and team owners who want to enter their events. By that token, they're closer to Danielray's idea of a privately-owned DCI (over on another thread here somewhere). They don't really "owe" anyone anything but whatever it is they've agreed to pay them. Drivers often make more from their team sponsors than they do from their NASCAR performances, so for even the best competitors, the money they make from NASCAR isn't the engine that drives them.

Were DCI to become a big enough thing that corporate sponsors could be found to sponsor 16 or 18 drum corps, great, but they're a long way off from that.

Also worth noting that getting on the circuit means making the financial commitment to showing up pretty much wherever the NASCAR bosses tell you to go, since they're all about filling up 43 slots, not caring about the costs involved in participation. If you want to keep racing, you'll show up, whether you can afford it or not.

I'm not sure there's a lot that DCI can be taking away from NASCAR except for their success in marketing the product. Bluntly, it's a mystery to me as to why people like it, but then again, I could only use that as proof that if you could get 50 million people to care about cars circling a track, you could probably find at least 1 or 2 million who'd care enough about drum corps to pay it some mind.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Slingerland

[Stu]

NASCAR is a privately-owned company, not a non-profit, and they charge a fee for drivers and team owners who want to enter their events. By that token, they're closer to Danielray's idea of a privately-owned DCI (over on another thread here somewhere). They don't really "owe" anyone anything but whatever it is they've agreed to pay them. Drivers often make more from their team sponsors than they do from their NASCAR performances, so for even the best competitors, the money they make from NASCAR isn't the engine that drives them.

Were DCI to become a big enough thing that corporate sponsors could be found to sponsor 16 or 18 drum corps, great, but they're a long way off from that.

Also worth noting that getting on the circuit means making the financial commitment to showing up pretty much wherever the NASCAR bosses tell you to go, since they're all about filling up 43 slots, not caring about the costs involved in participation. If you want to keep racing, you'll show up, whether you can afford it or not.

I'm not sure there's a lot that DCI can be taking away from NASCAR except for their success in marketing the product. Bluntly, it's a mystery to me as to why people like it, but then again, I could only use that as proof that if you could get 50 million people to care about cars circling a track, you could probably find at least 1 or 2 million who'd care enough about drum corps to pay it some mind.

a) If you have a problem with the NASCAR analogy take it up with Jeff Fiedler.

b) While I agree with you about the privately-owned for-profit nature of NASCAR, there is an organizational similarity with DCI. What DCI 'owes' corps that engage in all DCI sanctioned events are services (which are provided by the organization) not money (which is earned). Just like what NASCAR 'owes' the teams/drivers engaging in all the NASCAR sanctioned events are the services (which are provided by the organization) not money (which is earned).

c) And it is not that difficult to see the larger public interest in NASCAR as opposed to the lack of interest in the marching competitions. Auto Racing is much like NHL, NFL, etc.. which provide unpredictable 'objective' outcomes along with an exhilarating high risk taken by the competitors (and occasionally risk by the fans as seen on Saturday). DCI, while it does have a competitive element, provides a rather predictable 'subjective' outcome and a benign low risk to the performers within a musical arts show. Make Drum Corps a contact sport with objective scoring, as opposed to subjective judging, and you will see a huge increase in fans.

[charlie1223]

c) And it is not that difficult to see the larger public interest in NASCAR as opposed to the lack of interest in the marching competitions. Auto Racing is much like NHL, NFL, etc.. which provide unpredictable 'objective' outcomes along with an exhilarating high risk taken by the competitors (and occasionally risk by the fans as seen on Saturday). DCI, while it does have a competitive element, provides a rather predictable 'subjective' outcome and a benign low risk to the performers within a musical arts show. Make Drum Corps a contact sport with objective scoring, as opposed to subjective judging, and you will see a huge increase in fans.

I think you are an example of the kind of person Daniel Ray doesn't want to work at DCI. Someone is is fixated on DCI's limitations instead of its possibilities.

[Stu]

I think you are an example of the kind of person Daniel Ray doesn't want to work at DCI. Someone is is fixated on DCI's limitations instead of its possibilities.

I am all for the G7 moving out on their own, taking their own risks, and becoming successful in the free-market via MiM. Go for it!!!! I will support them with open arms!!!! Just do not take the true essence of DCI away from the Madison Scouts, Spirit, Crossmen, Boston, Oregon, Genesis, 7th Regiment, et al. And for me being fixated on limitations, that I am not. I have seen more failed attempts at various possibilities in the last 50 years than you can imagine; most of which were spearheaded by the so-called G7 top corps. And still to this day most all people outside the world of DCI see the marching arts as a geeky marching band activity. That has been the one consent which is really not about to change; no matter what 3D glasses we try to give the public. That said, occasionally single entities such as Blast, Blue Man, or Stomp can break out into the free-market; but they are just three entities in a world of millions of other forms of entertainment. So, again the G7 can join them via a for-profit MiM if they desire. Just do not place the youth of the rest of the DCI corps at risk for a G7 power grab; the G7 need to be a part of All of DCI, or they need to go bye-bye and form MiM.

[garfield]

I think a lot of people throw around the term kids a lot. This is actually a distinction between the different performance levels of the activity. While a lot of the open class corps do actually deal with kids, the top performing world class corps are dealing with young adults. These young adults are not there to learn how to play or really getting much of an educational experience. They might learn a specific technique or approach, but they show up already knowing how to play, how to move... and know it cold. This is very different from open class corps teaching kids fundamentals.

There is a huge distinction here between providing an educational experience for kids and a performance opportunity for young adults.

No one ever really calls performers in the top ballet companies kids, but in most cases, the majority of performers are younger than those in top performing groups of world class drum corps.

I also think this is a very interesting distinction - educational experience vs. performance opportunity. This is where the real disconnect is.

Yea, your points are valid-they are different experiences. But you actually made my point even though you didn't address it.

The top corps' experience IS tour and performance, so they are actually more dependent on DCI for tour services than the OC corps, where their experience of more education will remain intact if DCI were to go away.

One can't say that DCI isn't in the kid business when their primary function is to provide tour services to take those kids down the road from performance to performance.

But, this point is hardly important compared to the other problems DCI has.

[MikeD]

Where did I ever state, or even imply, that every hour and dollar a group possesses is supposed to be at the beck and call of DCI? Never have I contended that the hard earned revenue collected by the Cadets or BD on their own should be at the beck and call of DCI. What I have stated, and still maintain, is that within a 501c3 youth activity (and the DCI Mission Statement proves this to be true) all groups bare a huge responsibility to help all others within the same 501c3 by providing all corps with 'services' instead of becoming cannibalistic by eating the weak to feed their own excessive desires. A correct reading of the DCI Mission Statement and you will discover that Hopkins and Gibbs should certainly help DCI provide 'services' to all corps, even the OC corps, within DCI. Moreover, by choosing to be involved in DCI, they were not forced they chose to be in DCI, Hopkins and Gibbs also by definition chose to honor that Mission Statement!!!

YOU said that YEA! should be providing support to DCI and not provide services to the thousands of young people that participate in YEA-sponsored activities, such as the Urban Arts Center for the young people of Allentown and the Lehigh Valley, the hundreds of bands that participate in USBands and the Cadets2 drum corps.

A 'correct' reading of the DCI mission states no such thing.

[danielray]

Yea, your points are valid-they are different experiences. But you actually made my point even though you didn't address it.

The top corps' experience IS tour and performance, so they are actually more dependent on DCI for tour services than the OC corps, where their experience of more education will remain intact if DCI were to go away.

One can't say that DCI isn't in the kid business when their primary function is to provide tour services to take those kids down the road from performance to performance.

But, this point is hardly important compared to the other problems DCI has.

DCI doesn't take the kids down the road, they just have shows. Corps can come to them or not.

The DCI brand is the major league. That is what it was founded on and pretty much what has been the exclusive focus (though this has become a bit fuzzy in recent years, it seems). I really do think that community corps would be much better served through another vehicle, rather than DCI.

A community corps league could have their national championships aligned with DCI as it is now, but should be organized and managed separately.

Also, these corps could really be set up using a sort of templated approach. All operations for these groups could be pretty much uniform and templated (every single form, every single doc, sort of drum corps in a box) that would make it easy for groups in various communities to create a new community corps.

Basically, it can be pretty much set up to where you know that if you want to have a community corps, it will cost you $X for equipment $Y staffing $Z regional tour cost... and then a national championship trip on top for those that wish to go.

You can also make a path where corps can move up and switch leagues from minors to majors.

[MikeD]

I agree; DCI was not established to benefit 'all' youth. But it was established to benefit all youth engaging in DCI activities.

No, it was not. It was set up to benefit the 13 founding members. Early on they let others come and compete at champs, but to us the G7 terminology, they provided no real service to those corps.

[MikeD]

The 'best' corps of the time; really? Out of the thousands and thousands of corps in existence at that time, some in the VFW, some in the Catholic Youth League, and thousands of other corps which never engaged in competition against them, they were the 'best' corps?

There were not 'thousands and thousands' of corps competing at that time. I believe the Drum Corps History book states that there were 440 field corps at the start of the DCI era. That number has been posted on RAMD and DCP many times over the years by people with many different points of view.

[Stu]

YOU said that YEA! should be providing support to DCI and not provide services to the thousands of young people that participate in YEA-sponsored activities, such as the Urban Arts Center for the young people of Allentown and the Lehigh Valley, the hundreds of bands that participate in USBands and the Cadets2 drum corps.

A 'correct' reading of the DCI mission states no such thing.

Cadets are a part of DCI by choice; DCI is a fraternal cooperative by choice; Cadets owe back to DCI; that simple.