What do you think is wrong with Drum Corps today (if anything)?

[N.E. Brigand]

The soft echoes of the choir after the brass release is unbelievably effective, and there would be no other way to produce that acoustically to meet the same effect.

You know, people can sing too.

And singing is a instance of the rules being changed (many years ago, to permit vocals, which once were prohibited) that I find wholly in keeping with the essential spirit of the activity. Just because someone is opposed to some recent changes doesn't mean he is opposed to all changes. Just as for almost everybody, there are some changes that would push make drum corps into something else.

Which leads me to ask: has anybody here taken a look recently at the "drum and bugle corps" articles on Wikipedia? Yes, "pages" plural, because there is one for "modern" corps and one for "classic" corps. What is the approximate cut-off between the two kinds, according to the editors of Wikipedia? Roughly 1965-1972, i.e., with the founding of DCA and DCI. Where I see a continuum between, say, Scout House and Carolina Crown, others apparently see a complete break.

[skywhopper]

Oh, I missed this part until I saw it in cixelsyd's post:

I think you are confusing the How and What example. HOW a sound is produced (by pushing a button) is not amazing. But how it is designed and how it connects to all the elements is the creative part.

For example Cadets have this sample in their show of a male choir and after the release of the brass in the ballad this sample softly plays. And it is the MOST HAUNTING, dark and spine tingling moment in the entire show.

I think we expect very different things out of drum corps. HOW an amazing sound is produced is absolutely the part that I'm at a drum corps show for, and the reason I appreciate the activity. I most definitely am not interested in hearing cleverly designed soundscapes that were produced ahead of time by professionals with all the time and equipment they needed at their disposal. Your example is precisely the kind of thing that destroys the pleasure I get out of hearing a fabulous brass choir release. That exact example is one of my two least favorite bits of electronics out of the top six corps. If the only important thing is WHAT sound we're hearing, why have the members play instruments at all? Just play a recording while 150 guard have at it. WGI on a football field. Seriously, I don't understand. You surely get *something* from hearing the live sounds coming out of the battery and brass?

Edited July 18, 2013 by skywhopper

[jc12]

Show design

While I don't have a problem with show design per se I really have a problem with the type of music played by the majority of the corps today. I don't bother attending contests anymore as I don't enjoy the repertoire of music. I was in the activity for years and was an avid fan. I just cannot get into the music. Everyone is trying to outdo each other with the most innovative drill design and a repertoire of music choices that just leaves me extremely disappointed. The corps are not playing to the fans but to the judges. There were too many times attending a show when people around me would comment how great a corp performed their drill but "i don't know the music". I can understand why the activity is not really growing in spite of what drumcorp fanatics would have us believe.

My idea to attract bigger audiences:

DCI comes up with an idea that would earn the corps monetary prizes i.e. come up with a music theme focusing on the great american compers such as Gershwhin. Porter, Bernstien etc. It would not have to be a yearly contest but perhaps a one time event.

[N.E. Brigand]

I really have a problem with the type of music played by the majority of the corps today. I don't bother attending contests anymore as I don't enjoy the repertoire of music. ... I just cannot get into the music. Everyone is trying to outdo each other with ... a repertoire of music choices that just leaves me extremely disappointed. ... There were too many times attending a show when people around me would comment how great a corps performed their drill but, "I don't know the music".

Could you say approximately what era you have in mind, when you reminisce about corps mostly playing recognizable music? My own experience, for instance, when I first listened to DCI recordings of almost any older period, is how little of the music I knew. Not long after I joined DCP, I read much complaining here about Blue Devils merely quoting "La Suerte de los Tontos", because it was a classic number that fans wanted to hear at more length. I'd never heard of it--and I'm someone who grew up (in the 1980s) listening to a lot of big band on the radio.

[JimF-LowBari]

Could you say approximately what era you have in mind, when you reminisce about corps mostly playing recognizable music? My own experience, for instance, when I first listened to DCI recordings of almost any older period, is how little of the music I knew. Not long after I joined DCP, I read much complaining here about Blue Devils merely quoting "La Suerte de los Tontos", because it was a classic number that fans wanted to hear at more length. I'd never heard of it--and I'm someone who grew up (in the 1980s) listening to a lot of big band on the radio.

I used to use "recognizable music" but after some discussion realized it wasn't quite what I meant. Now I just go with a melody that can be followed and sure there is a better way to put it.

IOW - Fell in love with BDs "Legend of the One Eyed Sailor" but had never heard it before so was not recognizible. But... I could follow the tune and even humm it after the show was over *gasp*.

[charlie1223]

Show design

While I don't have a problem with show design per se I really have a problem with the type of music played by the majority of the corps today. I don't bother attending contests anymore as I don't enjoy the repertoire of music. I was in the activity for years and was an avid fan. I just cannot get into the music. Everyone is trying to outdo each other with the most innovative drill design and a repertoire of music choices that just leaves me extremely disappointed. The corps are not playing to the fans but to the judges. There were too many times attending a show when people around me would comment how great a corp performed their drill but "i don't know the music". I can understand why the activity is not really growing in spite of what drumcorp fanatics would have us believe.

My idea to attract bigger audiences:

DCI comes up with an idea that would earn the corps monetary prizes i.e. come up with a music theme focusing on the great american compers such as Gershwhin. Porter, Bernstien etc. It would not have to be a yearly contest but perhaps a one time event.

Which corps/music specifically do you not recognize or like?

[TerriTroop]

Show design

While I don't have a problem with show design per se I really have a problem with the type of music played by the majority of the corps today. I don't bother attending contests anymore as I don't enjoy the repertoire of music. I was in the activity for years and was an avid fan. I just cannot get into the music. Everyone is trying to outdo each other with the most innovative drill design and a repertoire of music choices that just leaves me extremely disappointed. The corps are not playing to the fans but to the judges. There were too many times attending a show when people around me would comment how great a corp performed their drill but "i don't know the music". I can understand why the activity is not really growing in spite of what drumcorp fanatics would have us believe.

My idea to attract bigger audiences:

DCI comes up with an idea that would earn the corps monetary prizes i.e. come up with a music theme focusing on the great american compers such as Gershwhin. Porter, Bernstien etc. It would not have to be a yearly contest but perhaps a one time event.

There may be several corps out there who would fit your bill right now. If you spend the equivalent of 2 decent tickets to a local show ($69 total), you can subscribe to the Fan Network and check out shows at your leisure for nearly a year. I think it would be worth it.

I didn't always know the music being played when I was exposed to drum corps for the first time in 1983. I credit SCV for my interest in Copland, Garfield (Cadets) for my interest in Bernstein and Cavies for my interest in Holst. These corps along with many others educated me about a huge variety of music when I was young and impressionable, and I'll never forget it. I think there are many corps who are doing a great job with musical content that is memorable on an emotional level. I hope you'll think about it. I've been through my own personal battles with current show design, so I know where you're coming from!

[Pete Freedman]

Here's the first example I noticed this year: 6/28/13 Muncie, IN, Madison Scouts - The high brass start a fanfare at 1:32 or so (when they hit the fleur de lis form) and the contras are grounded. There's no low-end sound for 20+ seconds but then at 1:55, the contras are up and suddenly there's a LOT of bass sound. I wouldn't call it synthesized or recorded brass sound, but at the low end, your ears can't tell the difference, if it's blended well. In this recording it wasn't blended well at all, and I can tell it's a synth sound overpowering whatever sound the contras might be making.

Or, 6/22/13 Akron, OH, Bluecoats - Starting at 0:42 you hear the walking down bassline and it really blares in the big impact that follows.

Or check out Crown's 2010 finals performance from 13:00 to the end. Or Blue Devils 2010, 9:59 to the end. Or in Cadets 2011 at about 1:20 or so you can hear it.

The midrange support is harder to pick out, but it happens, too. I've heard it at too many live performances. It's not that they're using a brass sound, but they're using a fuzzy synth patch that melds with the brass sound in a way that's impossible to pick out if it's mixed right.

EDIT: in fact, I found the worst example I remember, which was some synth string patch doubling the backfield brass during a mello soli in Phantom 2011: Check out 7/16/11 DCI Minnesota Phantom Regiment at 3:02. For one, the synth is overpowering the featured section in that particular mix (I don't think it was just the mike placement, because I had the same experience live at the Rockford TOC show that year), but they're also filling in midrange for the backfield brass. Luckily they mostly fixed the issue by finals, although you can hear some gooey bass at the same point in the show in the finals recording (starting about 3:40 in that video).

Thanks to both you and TerriTroop for the responses. I listened to her SCV clip and most of yours. If those tubas are really being enhanced by recorded/synthed sounds, that's actually offensive. (Granted, I'm not skiled enough to detect that it's fake on FN, but since nobody has refuted any of your examples I'll assume for now that you are right.)

Why offensive? Because those tuba players paid hundreds of dollars to travel to auditions and then camps, and are spending hours each day in the hot sun training to use their skills only to find out that some prerecorded material is being played in front of them. That's assuming they ever found out; I mean, when you're playing all you can hear is yourself and the people right behind you. But presumably somebody tells them, or they hear the clip separately. What a thrilling educational lesson that must be. A lesson in performing arts cynicism, maybe.

To me this debate is between two perspectives on drum corps itself; to one group it's a performing arts competition. To the other it's a performing arts education competition. I've realized that both types of argument we've seen here make perfect sense as long as you put the poster in your mind into one of those two categories. The first group can't see what's wrong with allowing corps to put out the best show they can, the other group can't see why DCI would allow techniques that interfere with judging the 150 kids on the field.

I'm in the second group, but I have a pinky toe in the first group; allow electronics to the extent that it doesn't interfere with judging the kids. Making that happen is a different issue, as are the related issues of keyboards and mics. But, can you play a recording of perfectly held long notes along with your kids' notes for the judges? The answer must be no.

[slknla]

I think the main problem with DCI show designs lately revolve around the fact that they are taking elements which have been used and accepted in BOA (and other high school marching bank circuits) for a long time and bringing them to drum corps. The problem though is that many of these elements (badly done voice overs, horrible synth string sounds, thunderous goo, etc...) are used to mask the deficiencies of high school groups, yet sound completely unprofessional when paired against college music major-level DCI musicians. The designers and judges have come to accept these as part of the sound of the activity because they are also so involved in those other activities. Us that mostly just pay attention to DCI really hear the foreign elements, and how much they don't fit.

Just my 2 cents.

i started in drum corps, then wen t to dance and theater, and then came back. while it has certainly evolved in many ways, what still holds it back is its devotional to military style comportment and movement. even the most moving corps are still largely tied to stiff upright angular marching posture. its too rigid a box to grow theatrically.

this brings us to the second part that insures the first part will not change: everyone learns to right and teach and design to the scoring boxes. there is little incentive to explore real movement like dance or theater movement if they is little appreciation and credit for it. corps are doing the best they can within a military box. for the shows to grow in impact, it will not come from more sound or better flags or more complexity, it will be how to take large groups of talented musicians and actors and dancers and really entertain. large audiences around the globe pay top dollar to be move in theater and movies. they have been educated by so you think you can dance and all the vocal talent competitions to understand the genres and expect a higher level of performance quality and sophistication.

this extends to uniforms. they are designed to be judged well, accentuate uniformity, hide movement weaknesses. most of the field is uniformed, not costumed (with some exceptions) heck, most of the unifroms come from teh same couple maufacturers and design teams.

is the activity si to grow and find greater audience, it ha to shed some of its traditions and become more entertaining to an audience expecting mroe flexibility and emotional buy in

[charlie1223]

Oh, I missed this part until I saw it in cixelsyd's post:

I think we expect very different things out of drum corps. HOW an amazing sound is produced is absolutely the part that I'm at a drum corps show for, and the reason I appreciate the activity. I most definitely am not interested in hearing cleverly designed soundscapes that were produced ahead of time by professionals with all the time and equipment they needed at their disposal. Your example is precisely the kind of thing that destroys the pleasure I get out of hearing a fabulous brass choir release. That exact example is one of my two least favorite bits of electronics out of the top six corps. If the only important thing is WHAT sound we're hearing, why have the members play instruments at all? Just play a recording while 150 guard have at it. WGI on a football field. Seriously, I don't understand. You surely get *something* from hearing the live sounds coming out of the battery and brass?

And I do enjoy Winter Guard as-well! I absolutely love the sound of the pit, battery and brass playing live! I simply do not think that anything that is added electronically takes away from that.

Just to be clear the relase of the Ballad in the Cadets is not a loud release, it actually diminuendos and I think they turn back field so you wouldn't get the crisp brass release that you find pleasure in any way even if there weren't any electronics. Plus, this is really simply an overall design choice that you like that is currently not being done. That is not to say that a corps couldn't' still do a crisp release if it was effective and appropriate.

What we are hearing is an extremely important aspect. However, I appreciate the WHAT of live totally immersive LIVE ensemble. If there were no LIVE elements it would not be drum corps so lets not get to the far extremes here.

I greatly enjoy Crowns Brass runs. I don't care HOW they did it I just care that the ARE.

I'm not that extreme here. I care about HOW some sounds are produced in the pit. SOmetimes that is really fun and interesting. I don't care about HOW EVERY sound is produced in the pit. Sometimes I care about WHAT the sound is and how effective that is. That's why I like the Cadets use of the choir chord on the synth. And I also like the use of the glass bottles to mimic machine sounds in Cavaliers 2006.

The point here is effectiveness. Corps still have a choice to decide WHAT sounds they want to produce and HOW they do it. And its up to them whether it is more effective/efficient for them to focus on the WHAT or the HOW. I am not hung up on either honestly. And I care more about what I'm seeing than what I WISH I was seeing.

Edited July 18, 2013 by charlie1223