Michael Boo Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 A solution to collisions with judges? Why would you want to take away the enjoyment of marching? Because one of these days a marcher might be seriously injured in such a collision, especially a horn player that finds their mouthpiece sticking out the back of their neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) The most logical solution is to do away with field judges all together. The whole concept is a relic left over from the days of tics and inspection. Not only are they a distraction (for both performers and the audience), they are an unnecessary cost. Judges (if there must be any at all), should sit where the audience sits, not on the field, not in the box, not with a mouse, not with a fox... Who cares how a corps sounds or plays close up? It is like sitting an inch away from a Monet. But... if you want to have upclose evaluation... judge the lot, make it a whole separate thing. Turn the lot into a performance and separate competition in itself. Make it a more festival type atmosphere. Edited January 24, 2014 by danielray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 The most logical solution is to do away with field judges all together. The whole concept is a relic left over from the days of tics and inspection. Not only are they a distraction (for both performers and the audience), they are an unnecessary cost. Judges (if there must be any at all), should sit where the audience sits, not on the field, not in the box, not with a mouse, not with a fox... Who cares how a corps sounds or plays close up? It is like sitting an inch away from a Monet. But... if you want to have upclose evaluation... judge the lot, make it a whole separate thing. Turn the lot into a performance and separate competition in itself. Make it a more festival type atmosphere. * No question they are a visual distraction for not only audience, but for the production crew making the videos (there's a great video on youtube I think of the production room where the director curses when a judge gets in the way of a good shot). The question is, are judges a SIGNIFICANT distraction? I don't think people skip shows because judges get in the way, and I'm fairly sure people don't buy DVD's or Blu-rays specifically because judges ruin shots. So if we're being honest, they are a very minor distraction at best. * I'm not sure eliminating field judges would eliminate any cost. There would still be a brass & percussion judge, and likely one vis judge to evaluate ensemble and one to evaluate individual/small groups. I think eliminating judges for cost-savings is a valid discussion, but not really in context here: eliminating the percussion field judges does not equal eliminating the percussion judge completely. * judging the lot is interesting from a conceptual idea, but not really practical. Lots = time for members to not only warm-up (sometimes after a long bus ride from housing to stadium), but also a time for members to mentally get in the performance zone. If lots were officially judged, there would need to be, like, a pre-lot warm-up zone or something for members to warm-up before their adjudicated warm-up. Then you'd have judges running around to catch the groups, possibly not having a ton of time to think rationally about numbers, etc. Perhaps there are solutions to all of those, but seems like an unnecessary hassle. * how many serious collisions are there every season? I know those are rarely "reported" publicly, so it is difficult to get a legit assessment, but I would guess very few. While there is always an inherent risk of that, there is FAR more risk of accidents happening due to membership missing a direction change, slipping on the field, or any other weird thing (like the Crown member who went down at Finals a few years ago). Perhaps field judges are not really that big of a cause of concern here * I'm way to verbose * bummer we had to ruin a nice, fun, goofy thread with legit argument 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 * No question they are a visual distraction for not only audience, but for the production crew making the videos (there's a great video on youtube I think of the production room where the director curses when a judge gets in the way of a good shot). The question is, are judges a SIGNIFICANT distraction? I don't think people skip shows because judges get in the way, and I'm fairly sure people don't buy DVD's or Blu-rays specifically because judges ruin shots. So if we're being honest, they are a very minor distraction at best. * I'm not sure eliminating field judges would eliminate any cost. There would still be a brass & percussion judge, and likely one vis judge to evaluate ensemble and one to evaluate individual/small groups. I think eliminating judges for cost-savings is a valid discussion, but not really in context here: eliminating the percussion field judges does not equal eliminating the percussion judge completely. * judging the lot is interesting from a conceptual idea, but not really practical. Lots = time for members to not only warm-up (sometimes after a long bus ride from housing to stadium), but also a time for members to mentally get in the performance zone. If lots were officially judged, there would need to be, like, a pre-lot warm-up zone or something for members to warm-up before their adjudicated warm-up. Then you'd have judges running around to catch the groups, possibly not having a ton of time to think rationally about numbers, etc. Perhaps there are solutions to all of those, but seems like an unnecessary hassle. * how many serious collisions are there every season? I know those are rarely "reported" publicly, so it is difficult to get a legit assessment, but I would guess very few. While there is always an inherent risk of that, there is FAR more risk of accidents happening due to membership missing a direction change, slipping on the field, or any other weird thing (like the Crown member who went down at Finals a few years ago). Perhaps field judges are not really that big of a cause of concern here * I'm way to verbose * bummer we had to ruin a nice, fun, goofy thread with legit argument It is not a major distraction, just as a Chiquita Banana sitcker would probably not be a major distraction, stuck on top of Picasso's Guernica. When was the last time you went to a wind ensemble competition and saw judges roaming around the performers? Makes zero sense. What a group should prioritize is how things come across in the stands, not on the field. There is no audience on the field, so it is entirely irrelevant how things appear down there. Something could sound completely off or out of phase on the field, but line up in the box. This parable best illustrates the perspective of field judges, in relation to the whole picture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBqgr5xZLz0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It is not a major distraction, just as a Chiquita Banana sitcker would probably not be a major distraction, stuck on top of Picasso's Guernica. When was the last time you went to a wind ensemble competition and saw judges roaming around the performers? Makes zero sense. What a group should prioritize is how things come across in the stands, not on the field. There is no audience on the field, so it is entirely irrelevant how things appear down there. Something could sound completely off or out of phase on the field, but line up in the box. The D-Ray arises from the Deep!!! I would like to see you go to the museum in Spain and try placing a Chiquita banana sticker on that painting; I for one think what would transpire after that would be a major distraction, um sorry, I mean a major attraction!!!! As to your other contention: The judging of what an audience sees and hears, while important, is only half of what is being judged. The attention to detail on the 'micro' level, things not seen or heard at the macro level in the stands, is really what separates those at the very top. A competitive example of how important the micro level is to this type of competition outside of DCI is Olympic Figure Skating. Although Compulsory figures such as cutting perfect figure eights and concentric circles into the ice are no longer mandated, the Technical judge still evaluates precise foot placements on jump take-offs and landings, precise arm angles on spins, et al. And since the judge is not out on the ice, extreme close up video, in real-time as well as instant-replay, is used by the judge to make those determinations. Another example is a car show where many spectators become curious as to why the fan favorite was not the winner. This is because the judging of detail of the hidden bolts on the transmission housing behind the firewall were judged as well as the overall aspects which can be seen by the public. Again, this judging is needed because the macro level is so equal and polished by the top participants that it takes micro level variations to separate them within a competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) The D-Ray arises from the Deep!!! I would like to see you go to the museum in Spain and try placing a Chiquita banana sticker on that painting; I for one think what would transpire after that would be a major distraction, um sorry, I mean a major attraction!!!! As to your other contention: The judging of what an audience sees and hears, while important, is only half of what is being judged. The attention to detail on the 'micro' level, things not seen or heard at the macro level in the stands, is really what separates those at the very top. A competitive example of how important the micro level is to this type of competition outside of DCI is Olympic Figure Skating. Although Compulsory figures such as cutting perfect figure eights and concentric circles into the ice are no longer mandated, the Technical judge still evaluates precise foot placements on jump take-offs and landings, precise arm angles on spins, et al. And since the judge is not out on the ice, extreme close up video, in real-time as well as instant-replay, is used by the judge to make those determinations. Another example is a car show where many spectators become curious as to why the fan favorite was not the winner. This is because the judging of detail of the hidden bolts on the transmission housing behind the firewall were judged as well as the overall aspects which can be seen by the public. Again, this judging is needed because the macro level is so equal and polished by the top participants that it takes micro level variations to separate them within a competition. Judging drum corps at all is kind of weird... but... if it must be evaluated and ranked, makes little sense to focus on the micro level stuff. Field judging is a relic, like inspection, that evaluates and scores aspects that are unrelated to the overall performance as the audience actually sees it. Despite an equal number of similarly questionable costumes, drum corps ain't figure skating. Drum corps is simply drum corps. It's an art, a sport, a dessert topping and a floor wax. It is the thing that it is. Edited January 25, 2014 by danielray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Judging drum corps at all is kind of weird... but... if it must be evaluated and ranked, makes little sense to focus on the micro level stuff. Field judging is a relic, like inspection, that evaluates and scores aspects that are unrelated to the overall performance as the audience actually sees it. Despite an equal number of similarly questionable costumes, drum corps ain't figure skating. Drum corps is simply drum corps. It's an art, a sport, a dessert topping and a floor wax. It is the thing that it is. If your judgement were correct and field judging were eliminated, I wonder how the armchair analysis of Crown's battery would have been different. Or how differently Cadets' incredible battery would have impacted their score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckH Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Despite an equal number of similarly questionable costumes, drum corps ain't figure skating. Drum corps is simply drum corps. Ironically, there'll be no field judges when DCI debuts its ice rink drum and bugle corps division. (Or will WGI be running that one? I forget.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingusmonk Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 ... Perhaps field judges are not really that big of a cause of concern here ... * bummer we had to ruin a nice, fun, goofy thread with an allegedly legit argument Fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 When was the last time you went to a wind ensemble competition and saw judges roaming around the performers? Makes zero sense. Never, because wind ensembles are not judged on interval spacing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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