BRASSO Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Go watch the 1979 scores on YouTube. Listen to how ticked Rondinaro and co. are that Phantom didn't win. Listen to them say 'It's all subjective.' 1979. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs17o6DRwDw I have no idea what this has to do with this topic, nor with anything being said on this topic either. But rambling on, if you insist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Maybe entertaining isn't the right word...but I think that a casual fan most of the time wants to see the shows that they most enjoyed score the best. Any time that doesn't happen, it becomes frustrating unless someone can point to the reason being that the performers of a corps that was to that person more enjoyable did not perform as well as the higher scoring corps. When that isn't the case and when the higher scoring corps wins effect but not the performance captions, lots of questions are raised, the answers of which are usually hard to come by because, again, GE is so subjective. Yes the members have a role in bringing the design to life, but what design is "brought to life" and what isn't is far more subjective than "this snare roll was dirty, this brass release was bad, this guard member dropped her flag", etc. I would also argue that the designers have a MUCH BIGGER role in bringing a show to life than the performers...in my mind, no corps on earth would have made 09 Phantom better than 08, for instance. Youre looking at it from only 1 point , not a big picture. Often, even back in the glory years people have always disagreed ( like in most judged activities ) who should win. The casual fan also does not have a criteria for deciding. The good or bad of that is a different story as far as what that should be. Judges are held to a specific criteria and fans are not ( that's good for fans , they can just enjoy or not ) Yes you are also right about what brings something to life and what may not and the subjectivity BUT it can be very obvious when something just doesn't work , again a criteria. Alot of the things you mentioned like a flag drop etc etc. Unless there is an awful display of skills, in today's shows and for quite sometime already they are not as important and much more complex in deciding if something works or not than it has ever been. We are not an activity of just minor mistakes anymore. Now if corps want to change that I'm very sure it will change. This has been my experience for many many years doing this Im sure there can be others, depending where they taught and their contributions who may have a slightly different view of it and i for 1 would love to hear what they have to say. It's always cool to talk to someone who experienced something a little different in the activty. Diverse it's always been and will be even more in the future IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) . I would also argue that the designers have a MUCH BIGGER role in bringing a show to life than the performers...in my mind, no corps on earth would have made 09 Phantom better than 08, for instance. Exactly. Carolina Crown won themselves a DCI Title just 2 seasons ago with a 6th place finish in the Performance Execution caption of Percussion ( as they had a terrific adult created Show Design). Has ANY DCI corps won a DCI Title outright with a 6th place in one of the 2 GE ( Show Design ) captions ? No. Could a Corps win a DCI Title in the future finishing as low as 6th in either of the two GE captions ? Of course not. Its entirely out of the question under the current sheets. Thats what this thread topic is all about, ie the shift of points to be had under the current sheets from performer based, to adult Show Design based. Now.. noone here is saying that performance execution is not critically important. We are saying we notice a shift from performer based to more of a Show Design based system than we have ever seen in DCI ever before. The loss of full judging panels, with the ancillary loss of these performance based captions for much of the season is simply one visible manisfestation of this.. Edited August 30, 2015 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 I have no idea what this has to do with this topic, nor with anything being said on this topic either. But rambling on, if you insist. Ah, you're right. It is probably a non sequitur. But I had just watched this the other day and found it quite interesting. And then your friend said that scoring was and always has been subjective and it reminded me. There may be other connections, but I can't take more time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfan4567 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Who is to decide if something works or not? Again, that is so subjective, and as you mentioned judges don't always agree on who should be the winner. My point is this is not the way it should be. If we made the results more about performance (which is much less subjective than GE), it puts the results more in the hands of the performers and gives us a better understanding of why a corps won or didn't win. I have no problem with, for instance, saying that Cavies 2000 should have been an outright winner than Cadets 2000 if we say that Cavies were the better corps on finals night. That doesn't have to mean that Cadets 2000 isn't one of the special shows in the history of the activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Ah, you're right. It is probably a non sequitur. But I had just watched this the other day and found it quite interesting. And then your friend said that scoring was and always has been subjective and it reminded me. There may be other connections, but I can't take more time now. Yeah there's many One thing you are very wrong with FRIEND?......lol...hardly. I have good taste. and picky...lol Edited August 30, 2015 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Who is to decide if something works or not? Again, that is so subjective, and as you mentioned judges don't always agree on who should be the winner. My point is this is not the way it should be. If we made the results more about performance (which is much less subjective than GE), it puts the results more in the hands of the performers and gives us a better understanding of why a corps won or didn't win. I have no problem with, for instance, saying that Cavies 2000 should have been an outright winner than Cadets 2000 if we say that Cavies were the better corps on finals night. That doesn't have to mean that Cadets 2000 isn't one of the special shows in the history of the activity. We have judges deciding this. Its a judged activity. This can certainly be changed if the activity decides, this but until then it's what it is. If corps want a return to more weight of execution , then that will happen. Corps will decide what should or shouldn't be. It's kinda the reason DCI was formed to get away from not deciding their own course Just a note: ask a good execution judge if it was also subjective...it was Edited August 30, 2015 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfan4567 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Now.. noone here is saying that performance execution is not critically important. We are saying we notice a shift from performer based to more of a Show Design based system than we have ever seen in DCI ever before. Agreed with everything you say...now my question is, should that be the case? I think not...like I said there is no reason a show cannot be special to many people even if it doesn't win, and of course that is already the case in many instances (Crown 09 is perhaps my favorite show and it wasn't champion) but I personally think that the best thing for the activity is if the results were most determined by the work of 150 people on the field and not by the few designers, especially as design is more subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfan4567 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) We have judges deciding this. Its a judged activity. This can certainly be change if the activity decide this but until then it's what it is. If corps want a return to more weight of execution , then that will happen. Corps will decide what should or shouldn't be. It's kinda the reason DCI was formed to get away from not deciding their own course Just a note: ask a good execution judge if it was also subjective...it was We have judges VERY SUBJECTIVELY deciding this. Why should this subjective criteria be what determines the results? And I'm sorry, but while there are instances of subjectivity in evaluating performance captions, there are also many concrete factors which can lead you to objectively determine corps X did something better than corps Y. I was on an open class corps staff for 3 years and was privy to listening to GE tapes as well as listening to the GE judges at critique, and have worked (primarily with one) marching band for the past 7 years, including musically arranging our show last year. The tastes and opinions of GE judges differ quite a lot in my experience and it's not something I hold against them either way because they are doing the job to the best of their ability. It is a problem with the system. Edited August 30, 2015 by drumcorpsfan4567 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 We have judges VERY SUBJECTIVELY deciding this. Why should this subjective criteria be what determines the results? And I'm sorry, but while there are instances of subjectivity in evaluating performance captions, there are also many concrete factors which can lead you to objectively determine corps X did something better than corps Y. I was on an open class corps staff for 3 years and was privy to listening to GE tapes as well as listening to the GE judges at critique, and have worked (primarily with one) marching band for the past 7 years, including musically arranging our show last year. The tastes and opinions of GE judges differ quite a lot in my experience and it's not something I hold against them either way because they are doing the job to the best of their ability. It is a problem with the system. Yes they do, as do the opinions of judges who judge execution. As i said the system will change when they feel it needs to ( the corps) Imnot saying what you are saying is wrong . I just disagree with the fact that you dont think the MMs control more than some think. Yes GE is subjective, it all is, thats my point BUT at least there is criteria and somewhat accountability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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