BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I guess that explains why Bluecoats have had such crappy placements the last couple years. It's that darn music the kids are listening to on their headphones! No. Not in the least. Its been the Bluecoats much improved adult created Show Designs that has catapulted Bluecoats into the top 5. ( not their music genre selected ). Its also been their GE that has kept them out of first place too, not their marcher talent. In my opinion, the Bluecoats these last 2 years have as equal if not slightly better MM talent than the Blue Devils MM'er talent. Nobody does better Show Designs than the Blue Devils however. Thats primarily why they are 1,2 every year now, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 No. Not in the least. Its been the Bluecoats much improved adult created Show Designs that has catapulted Bluecoats into the top 5. ( not their music genre selected ). Its also been their GE that has kept them out of first place too, not their marcher talent. In my opinion, the Bluecoats these last 2 years have as equal if not slightly better MM talent than the Blue Devils MM'er talent. Nobody does better Show Designs than the Blue Devils however. Thats primarily why they are 1,2 every year now, imo. No, it's part of the reason they are contenders every year. The other part is the fact that no other corps performs consistently at such a high level. You know, what this thread is supposed to be about. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) . So based on your chosen example of General Effect as proxy for "adult-created" design, it's always been more important in DCI to have a top-notch design than to have a top-notch performance. I don't believe thats historically accurate at all. In the past, the GE caption itself did not have 40 points. Additionally, judges today in the performance execution captions are not only allowed, but encouraged, to look at the other GE captions in the Brass playing, the Percussion playing, the Guard tossing of equipment, dancing, etc. This was not the case at all in the recent past. For example, a Percussion judge used to only judge the Percussion playing abilities of the Percussionists. It was not his task to have the criteria bleed into the GE captions... which they do now. Thus, the GE captions are far more important on the current judging sheets than ever before. GE thus is far more important on the sheets than the ever before, imo Could Crown have won a DCI Title for themselves a mere decade or so ago ( previous sheets ) with a 6th place in Percussion ? Not a chance, N.E. Brigand. No way. But.. they had a great Show Design in 2013 and that was key. Why did Crown fall to 5th from first from 2013 to 2014 ? Drop off in MM talent ? ( after winning DCI ? )... MM's did not work as hard in 2014 over that of 2013 ? MM's did not execute as well ? Nope. Crown had a killer brass line in 2013 too. It was their adult created Show Design that was not as good as that of 2013 ( or 2015 ). And their placement results in 2014 accounted for this 4 position placement slide, year over end. This season, ( who knows how much better their MM talent was here in Crown in 2015 over 2014.. I suspect though , not much. )) they improved 3 placement positions on Finals Night, and were ever so close close from winning their 2nd DCI Title. And it was their better designed show of 2015 over that of 2014 that principally allowed them to almost win it all this season, imo Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) No, it's part of the reason they are contenders every year. The other part is the fact that no other corps performs consistently at such a high level. You know, what this thread is supposed to be about. If we gave the Blue Devils talent of this season to SCV, would SCV have won the DCI title, if they had SCV's show this season. Nope. Not a chance, imo ( and I liked SCV show this season, so don't get me wrong ). SCV has not had the Show Design that BD has put together the last decade. Thats why SCV, despite their hard working MM talent the last decade, has not medaled since 2004. Its increasingly, the adults judging other adults creations on their Show Designs.. more so than ever before in DCI's history, imo. Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 If we gave the Blue Devils talent of this season to SCV, would SCV have won the DCI title, if they had SCV's show this season. Nope. Not a chance, imo ( and I liked SCV show this season, so don't get me wrong ). SCV has not had the Show Design that BD has put together the last decade. Thats why SCV, despite their hard working MM talent the last decade, has not medaled since 2004. Its increasingly, the adults judging other adults creations on their Show Designs.. more so than ever before in DCI's history, imo. Conversely, if you'd given BD's show to SCV's members, they'd have fallen on their faces from the word go. Design and performer go hand-in-hand, which is the point you're missing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Conversely, if you'd given BD's show to SCV's members, they'd have fallen on their faces from the word go. Design and performer go hand-in-hand, which is the point you're missing. No, I " get" that Show Design and Performance go hand in hand. What you are missing is that the Show Design is ( more so than ever before ) taking the lead now on the sheets. Heck, BD has always had the best overall Show Designers in DCI. Thats why they almost always win ( or at least medal ) . They don't magically work their marchers harder, nor smarter.The infrequent years when BD did not medal, it was not because the MM's were not as talented, or didn't work as hard or execute the show given to them as well as other BD MM'ers did.. It was the infrequent years when their Show Design was not as good as most years from them. THATS the predominant reason. Not that BD didn't have the MM talent, or some other Corps besides BD had more MM talent or worked harder, executed better that year ( jeez, I 'm surprised that I have to splain' this all to a few handful of people that don't " get " this here on DCP, when it seems so clearly obvious to me... oh well... haha!. ) Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yay! Fun thread! That was my hope. A couple of random thoughts, not meant to sum anything up or solve any problems. According to some, the solution to giving more power to the performers is to reduce the percentage of GE in the total score. I think it is somewhat interesting that the performance captions were the deciding scores this year. If the GE score had been 100% of the score, we would have had a different champion. But if the GE had been reduced as a percentage, we would have had the same champion but with an even greater margin. There is more to say, but based on this year alone, we can't say that the GE caption's weight necessarily is the factor in determing the competitive outcome. I also wonder if GE isn't more 'performance based' than people think. Yes, design is important, ,but equally 'on the sheets' it is important if the performers accomplish the intent of the design. Is the crescendo in a place that makes sense, AND do they do it well? Joe Allison's only 'negative' comments in Phantom's 2006 GE tape were execution related. A whimsical thought: 'GE: Does it bring good things to life?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) If people read my early season take on the Cadets they will see that right out of the gate I said that this years 2015 Cadets show had the potential Show Design to win it all. ( unlike last year on here, when I said the Cadets 2014 show would not allow their MM's a shot to win it all ). But what I had not ( could not ) have envisioned would be that the last 2 weeks of the 2015 season the adult staffers in the Cadets would A) do a curious uniform colors change they had not done in 80 some odd years and B) for a visual closer the staffers there decided to just throw in the 80's, 90's styled Z Pull closer they've already utilized over a half dozen times before and C) Crown staffers would put in their show at the same simultaneous moment a steller creative visual move for their closer.. Given these 3 things, it was perfectly predictable that Crown would pass the Cadets after this. And it had not a thing to do with ANY of the hard working MM's in either of these 2 fine Corps. The Cadets marchers were superb at this 2015 Finals. But they had no shot... not shot at all..... of winning DCI once their Corps busses rolled into Indy this year, after starting out the season so promising and with a great shot to win it all this season. It was the Adults. The Show Design. Almost all of it. Crown's staff made a great Show Design choice late. Cadets, by contrast, did not. Not even close. And so that principally explains why Crown topped Cadets at Championships here in 2015.. And one more reason why its so obvious to some of us here of the overarching predominance of the adult created Show Design in placements. And its as clear as a bell to some of us. And winning shows bring in the MM talent. And then the cycle goes on. Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Well, I think the lack of a clean guard (comparatively) was also a factor, and I think that the level of performance (as I said above) influences GE score. Is it possible that if the Cadets had simply performed just a little better in visual, and some of the other groups had not been as strong in performance, we would be hailing Hopkins and co. as geniuses right now? I honestly don't know. BTW, I feel like Cadets guard and Ceown's drumline got dumped on a lot this year. These were still very competent and outstanding ensembles, among the best of the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) If you are going to have a weak section in the Corps, it can't be Guard. Make it Brass. Make it Percussion. Guards drive the themes, as much if not more so than the Brass, Percussion. In an era where the Visual is so important, make your Guard your strongest section. Within your pecking order.. top, middle, lower tier, having a better Guard will probably pay off over your placement rival in that pecking order in the end. Not always. But most of the time. Now, who would've thought Crown would have had such an outstanding Guard this season. ? Not Me. I was surprised a bit by how good their Guard was this season. And it almost helped put them over the top. Cadets ?. I guess we should have seen this coming. Early on their were indications that this year's Cadets weak section link would be their Guard. Sure, the Cadets had an outstanding Brass line ( and Percussion line ). But what did I just say about the importance of Guard ? ( are yall paying attention ?.. haha!) Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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