N.E. Brigand Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Could Crown have won a DCI title for themselves a mere decade or so ago (previous sheets) with a 6th place in Percussion? Not a chance, N.E. Brigand. No way. So why did BD do that very thing in 1980? It was possible to be sixth in percussion and win it all 35 years ago. It was possible to be sixth in percussion and win it all two years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) So why did BD do that very thing in 1980? It was possible to be sixth in percussion and win it all 35 years ago. It was possible to be sixth in percussion and win it all two years ago. Yes, but that makes my point even stronger. Thank you. I said above it is possible to win DCI being 6th in percussion. ( BD was even as low as 7th in Percussion in their 1980 DCI winning year ) You simply provided us yet another example of this from another season. I said it would be impossible however to win a DCI title finishing 7th in GE total... or 6th in GE total... or 5th in GE Total.. or even 4th in GE total. You have to medal in GE total, or it doesn't matter how well you toot the horns, bang on the drums, toss the flags, etc. You can do this in a subpar way however, and win or place well, if your Show Design the judges like. Did you check the GE scores of the 2013 Crown and the 1980 Blue Devils ? Where did they finish in GE total despite the very, VERY subpar performance execution ( 6th, 7th ) in Percussion this nite compared to the others around them ? ( answer : they both finished 2nd in GE total ).. So what did you learn about the importance of GE ( Show Design ) then ? Are you aware that a Corps in DCI once WON Percussion performance execution in the prelims, yet failed to even make Finals ? Why ? GE, principally. Yes, GE was predominant in placements back then too. I'm just saying that in my assessment and observation Show Design is even more predominant today. One reason is the allowance of so many things into shows now too for the Show Designers. The fact GE has been so important.. throughout all these years.... is one of the reasons that BD was even winning back in the 70's, 80's.. including this 1980 year you mentioned. BD had great Show Designs back then. They have them now. The infrequent years, BD did not medal, were not the years their Brass line, Percussion line wasn't good ( 6th, 7th or such ). It was when they had the unusual subpar year in Show Design from them. It showed up in GE, and they were cooked that season as a result., no matter how well they executed what was given to them by the adults in these infrequent non medaling years for BD. Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Conversely, if you'd given BD's show to SCV's members, they'd have fallen on their faces from the word go. Design and performer go hand-in-hand, which is the point you're missing. I disagree... I believe the BD staff + show + SCV members would've finished 1st or 2nd. And would perhaps go as far to say BD staff + show + Crossmen members (12th place corps) would've been top 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Could Crown have won a DCI title for themselves a mere decade ago (previous sheets) with a 6th place in percussion? Not a chance, N.E. Brigand. No way. So why did BD do that very thing in 1980? It was possible to be sixth in percussion and win it all 35 years ago. It was possible to be sixth in percussion and win it all two years ago. Yes, but that makes my point even stronger. Thank you. I said above it is possible to win DCI being 6th in percussion. (BD was even as low as 7th in Percussion in their 1980 DCI winning year.) You simply provided us yet another example of this from another season. I said it would be impossible, however, to win a DCI title finishing 7th in GE total... or 6th in GE total... or 5th in GE Total.. or even 4th in GE total. You have to medal in GE total, or it doesn't matter how well you toot the horns, bang on the drums, toss the flags, etc. You can do this in a subpar way however, and win or place well, if your Show Design the judges like. Did you check the GE scores of the 2013 Crown and the 1980 Blue Devils ? Where did they finish in GE total despite the very, VERY subpar performance execution ( 6th, 7th ) in Percussion this nite compared to the others around them ? ( answer : they both finished 2nd in GE total ).. So what did you learn about the importance of GE ( Show Design ) then ? Are you aware that a Corps in DCI once WON Percussion performance execution in the prelims, yet failed to even make Finals ? Why ? GE, principally. Yes, GE was predominant in placements back then too. I'm just saying that in my assessment and observation Show Design is even more predominant today. One reason is the allowance of so many things into shows now too for the Show Designers. The fact GE has been so important.. throughout all these years.... is one of the reasons that BD was even winning back in the 70's, 80's.. including this 1980 year you mentioned. BD had great Show Designs back then. They have them now. The infrequent years, BD did not medal, were not the years their Brass line, Percussion line wasn't good ( 6th, 7th or such ). It was when they had the unusual subpar year in Show Design from them. It showed up in GE, and they were cooked that season as a result., no matter how well they executed what was given to them by the adults in these infrequent non medaling years for BD. You said that Carolina Crown could not have won a championship ten years ago with a sixth-place percussion line. I think I proved you wrong by showing that a corps did win a championship thirty-five years ago with a sixth-place percussion line. Unless you meant: (1) That only Carolina Crown could not have thus won ten years ago; or (2) That the rules changed between 1980 and 2003 in such a way that it became impossible for corps with sixth-place percussion lines to win, and then changed again after 2003 to make that possible again. Did you mean one of those two things? If you did not, am I correct that I have shown your statement about Crown circa 2003 to be false? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) I disagree... I believe the BD staff + show + SCV members would've finished 1st or 2nd. And would perhaps go as far to say BD staff + show + Crossmen members (12th place corps) would've been top 4. The first one I might buy. The second, no way. That unison fortissimo attack by the sopranos at the end of 'Children Will Listen' (for example) doesn't happen just by writing it.You need both great design and great performers.I don't think that without the top performers in DCI Downey decides to write the stuff he does. Edited August 31, 2015 by mfrontz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yes, but that makes my point even stronger. Thank you. I said above it is possible to win DCI being 6th in percussion. ( BD was even as low as 7th in Percussion in their 1980 DCI winning year ) You simply provided us yet another example of this from another season. I said it would be impossible however to win a DCI title finishing 7th in GE total... or 6th in GE total... or 5th in GE Total.. or even 4th in GE total. You have to medal in GE total, or it doesn't matter how well you toot the horns, bang on the drums, toss the flags, etc. You can do this in a subpar way however, and win or place well, if your Show Design the judges like. Did you check the GE scores of the 2013 Crown and the 1980 Blue Devils ? Where did they finish in GE total despite the very, VERY subpar performance execution ( 6th, 7th ) in Percussion this nite compared to the others around them ? ( answer : they both finished 2nd in GE total ).. So what did you learn about the importance of GE ( Show Design ) then ? Are you aware that a Corps in DCI once WON Percussion performance execution in the prelims, yet failed to even make Finals ? Why ? GE, principally. Yes, GE was predominant in placements back then too. I'm just saying that in my assessment and observation Show Design is even more predominant today. One reason is the allowance of so many things into shows now too for the Show Designers. The fact GE has been so important.. throughout all these years.... is one of the reasons that BD was even winning back in the 70's, 80's.. including this 1980 year you mentioned. BD had great Show Designs back then. They have them now. The infrequent years, BD did not medal, were not the years their Brass line, Percussion line wasn't good ( 6th, 7th or such ). It was when they had the unusual subpar year in Show Design from them. It showed up in GE, and they were cooked that season as a result., no matter how well they executed what was given to them by the adults in these infrequent non medaling years for BD. Not true. The last year BD placed fifth (1991!) their drumline placed ninth. They were also dumped in percussion GE as well. GE is only partially about design, and the design is influenced by the people who are there to perform it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 What you are missing is that the Show Design is ( more so than ever before ) taking the lead now on the sheets. It isn't, but you can keep telling yourself that. Without excellent performance, you get zero credit for design, no matter how good or bad. That's the way the system was designed, and it's working very well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Windish Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) It isn't, but you can keep telling yourself that. Without excellent performance, you get zero credit for design, no matter how good or bad. That's the way the system was designed, and it's working very well. First of all, this is a wonderful discussion! John, your above statement is one that touches most on my confusion about what's the best path to winning within the current sheets, both here and with DCA. Your second sentence suggests performance drives the bus, so to speak. Therefore, I ask the question . . . . What's the point of designing music or marching that pushes the limits of musical virtuosity, or bodily movement? In other words, no point making things too difficult for your members, because those who do (like 2015 Cadets?) handicap their chances of performance mastery. Anyone else? Edited August 31, 2015 by Fred Windish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) You said that Carolina Crown could not have won a championship ten years ago with a sixth-place percussion line. I think I proved you wrong by showing that a corps did win a championship thirty-five years ago with a sixth-place percussion line. Unless you meant: (1) That only Carolina Crown could not have thus won ten years ago; or (2) That the rules changed between 1980 and 2003 in such a way that it became impossible for corps with sixth-place percussion lines to win, and then changed again after 2003 to make that possible again. Did you mean one of those two things? If you did not, am I correct that I have shown your statement about Crown circa 2003 to be false? You seem like a reasonably bright guy, N.E. Brigand. As such then, you know that with just about anything.. Drum Corps related or not.... there are almost without exception, more than 2 possibilities for things. And thus, there is with this as well. Since you only saw fit however to provide me 2 choices here ( instead of merely asking me nicely to expand and / or clarify in more detail for you my remarks on this above,) then I will simply respond to your limited 2 choices provided to me here with my reply of...... : " neither " Yesterday I asked you an open ended question above :.. " what did you learn from the fact that no Corps has ever won a DCI Title since the inception of DCI in 1972 with not medaling in the Total GE caption ". A GE caption that is primarily,( but not exclusively) an adult created " Show Design " caption" ? ( with the knowledge you have now that multiple Corps have won a Title however despite not medaling and finishing as low as 6th and 7th in the purely performer based, performance execution captions, such as Percussion, Brass, Guard ? ). Chronologically, I asked you this question first, and before you gave me just 2 choices here this morning to choose as a reply for your question of me now. If you take the time to respond to my open ended question I asked of you yesterday, then I can consider the very likely possibility of my expanding later today on your question posed of me here now. Does this sound like a reasonable request of you on how to continue the proper dialogue between us on this ? Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 All the Corps, and their show design staffers,.. in both the pre DCI years, as well as most of the DCI years... were always afforded full judging panels for their summer's competitions. When we moved recently however into the halfazz sized judging panels of a few years, the influence of the Show Design took on a more predominant role in the scores. Without a percussion judge, or a brass judge, or a guard judge, the GE captions took on a bigger role in the scores. That sounded like a good point on first reading. But then I looked at a recap from early season, and the reality is that in a 5-person panel, GE is still 40% of the score, just like it is with the larger panels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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