Return the power to the performers (?)

[Jeff Ream]

Big B, obviously, will give a Reader's Digest (one could only hope) reply, but, I'd say the passing decades may not have changed this sentiment in the minds of others. With the current sheets, those thoughts might be even more relevant today.

given the sheets are performer driven, I think that things have changed

[N.E. Brigand]

Big B, obviously, will give a Reader's Digest (one could only hope) reply, but, I'd say the passing decades may not have changed this sentiment in the minds of others. With the current sheets, those thoughts might be even more relevant today.

Well, "might be even more relevant today" has been the heart of much disagreement in this thread. The discussion's nominal subject was whether power should return from designers to performers, and there has been much talk about how the rules now favor effect over execution, but upon investigation, it seems that it's always been harder to win with weaker G.E. than with weaker execution, and that quotes supporting the idea that DCI favors G.E. over performance date back more than twenty years.

As you say, time "may not have changed" the emphasis on G.E., so let's drop the talk about getting back to some better age. If DCI is broken because G.E. is overemphasized, then apparently DCI was always broken.

Edited September 3, 2015 by N.E. Brigand

[HornTeacher]

I guess those two are the head judges.

I'm not sure I've said this before...but I love your sense of humor.

[HornTeacher]

Berman has a reputation of playing " hardball ".

I thought that was reserved for Chris Matthews?

[BRASSO]

yes. you assume because it was said in 1992, that makes it so now?

Yes, even MORE so now, imo.

Crown won a DCI Title as recently as 2013 demonstrating in real world RECENT terms this DCI's Chief Judge's position on this.. Crown won in 2013 with a 6th place in a Performers execution caption( Percussion ). Since the inception of DCI in 1972 however ( including ALL the years after this Chief Judge teachings to other DCI judges in 1992) no Corps has ever won a DCI Title not medaling ( 3rd or higher ) in Total GE ( predominately a Show Design caption ). Both the ENTIRE DCI history... AND...the DCI Chief Judge Ken Turner's own words here are substantive evidence of the predominant role of the Show Design over that of the performers performance execution. ( Execution important.. Show Design, more important) Those who fail to alter their positions on this are simply captive to their own stubborn misguided and incorrect thinking on this, thats all. Facts don't magically disappear however because we avoid them or don't acknowledge them, or we don't prefer them to be so. If someone can't simply accept what DCI Chief Judge Ken Turner said on this very issue above, then theres probably nothing I or anyone else can do to convince them otherwise, and so thats that, and we move on.

Edited September 3, 2015 by BRASSO

[N.E. Brigand]

Yes, even MORE so now, imo.

But perhaps not as much as in 1980, right?

And maybe less so than ever before in 2015, when, apparently for the first time, the championship-winning corps was actually ranked fourth by one G.E. judge?

Edited September 3, 2015 by N.E. Brigand

[BRASSO]

But perhaps not as much as in 1980, right?

And maybe less so than ever before in 2015, when, apparently for the first time, the championship-winning corps was actually ranked fourth by one G.E. judge?

Total GE... if one had a lower score in say GE ( Mus.) they would need to have a much better GE( Vis. ) to secure the GE Total as 3rd or higher. Which is what we had this year in the Total GE caption.

Speaking of Crown.. it was primarily an adult created Show Design 2 weeks before Championships that allowed them to pass Cadets. Both Cadets & Crown marchers worked their butts off the last 2 weeks. Both had superb performances from their marchers at Championships week. But Cadets had a uni change coupled with an old Z pull put in for a Closer. Crown put in a gem of a closer change by contrast, and it was the difference. Show Design. Crown put in a better one... and that was really the essential difference between the two Corps in the end. And who has the best Show Designs most years ? ( going back to the 70's ? ). The Blue Devils. The years when they had Show Designs not top 3, ( GE Total below 3rd ) are the infrequent years when they failed to win or medal.

Edited September 3, 2015 by BRASSO

[garfield]

Total GE... if one had a lower score in say GE ( Mus.) they would need to have a much better GE( Vis. ) to secure the GE Total as 3rd or higher. Which is what we had this year in the Total GE caption.

Speaking of Crown.. it was primarily an adult created Show Design 2 weeks before Championships that allowed them to pass Cadets. Both Cadets & Crown marchers worked their butts off the last 2 weeks. Both had superb performances from their marchers at Championships week. But Cadets had a uni change coupled with an old Z pull put in for a Closer. Crown put in a gem of a closer change by contrast, and it was the difference. Show Design. Crown put in a better one... and that was really the essential difference between the two Corps in the end. And who has the best Show Designs most years ? ( going back to the 70's ? ). The Blue Devils. The years when they had Show Designs not top 3, ( GE Total below 3rd ) are the infrequent years when they failed to win or medal.

Now that you've snatched the bait and pulled the bobber under water, could I ask that you save us from qualifying design as "adult created", please? I think we can all accept that all design is adult-driven primarily, with design input from the MM's when necessary and/or encouraged. Is that fair?

(Psst. I posted most of that stuff specifically for you to use in your argument, not because I believe you necessarily, but because I knew you'd entertain us using it.)

[BRASSO]

given the sheets are performer driven, I think that things have changed

There are no on field results... since DCI Chief Judge Ken Turner made his remarks in 1992... that make his remarks on the predominance of the Show Design taking preeminance over that of the individual performers... that would make his remarks not true today. The results since 1992 simply confirm even MORE these 1992 remarks of his. For example, the fact that a Corps finished 6th in a performer performance execution caption just 2 years ago at Finals, yet won the title by virtue of what Mr. Turner told us what key... Show Design ( Total GE ).. is compelling & convincing. Additionally, during the same time period from 1992 ( when Mr. Turner made his instructional seminar to DCI judges and others on the predominance of Show Design) no Corps that has finished lower than 3rd in total GE has won a DCI Title. So there it is. Its as clear as a bell for those that are paying attention to both on field results since 1992 ( heck, even since1972) as well as to actually listening and absorbing what DCI Chief Judge Ken Turner told us on this very subject. If on field results and the very words of the Chief Judge of DCI itself arn't enough convincing, then what the H, just listen to 2 or 3 anonymous DCPers here who try and tell us differently, as THEY know better than DCI Chief Judges. ( haha!)

Edited September 3, 2015 by BRASSO

[garfield]

Is it appropriate to call GE "entertainment value"?

(runs out of the room)