perc2100 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Currently it's just General Effect 1 and General Effect 2 with no indication of visual or music. I agree that what's on the sheets seems fine. Combining brass and percussion into music is fine, but they should then call it music GE. While this is true of course, looking at judge panels it seems obvious that there are Visual-heavy judges on one side, and Music-centric GE judges on the other. The sheets now allow those judges to better cross-evaluate, and speak to a more (wait for it....)general effect the show has on them/the audience, however, it's my understanding that DCI still populates visual experts + music experts in order for the caption to be better balanced consistently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Currently it's just General Effect 1 and General Effect 2 with no indication of visual or music. I agree that what's on the sheets seems fine. Combining brass and percussion into music is fine, but they should then call it music GE. But the point of the change a few seasons ago was to make the Effect sheets actually General: to not be 100% focused on one half of the effect elements. Yes, the GE 1 & GE 2 seem to be broken up by 'music expert' and 'vis expert,' however the verbiage on the sheets and the intent of the change was to give the judges more latitude to comment and rate the overall effect of both visual and music. The GE caption being split with a music expert & vis. expert is mainly to bring balance to panel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 How do you propose developing music? As a composer I'm curious. It's also fascinating that the person you replied to seem to think its argumentative that visual design is better now than 40 years ago. This is not a judgement call, it's 100% fact that visual design now is better, more demanding, more integrated w/music and other elements, etc. than it was than 1975 and earlier. Obviously liking modern visual design vs mid-70s and earlier visual design is a matter of personal taste, but it is unquestionably better design now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I would suggest that they make the audio engineer become a member of the performing ensemble. This is directly related to an ensemble's score, which in my opinion, shouldn't be a hired gun, intern, or staff member. There are thousands upon thousands of music technology, reinforcement, and sound design programs across the nation, this is the perfect opportunity for DCI to provide an opportunity for talented music tech students to work on a project that would be produced onto a cd, dvd, or blue ray. I believe DCI tried this the first season or so w/electronics and it just led to problems. Just about every marching circuit in the pageantry world allows staffers to have control over that, why should DCI devolve back to how it was, take a member off the field performing + have him pay thousands of dollars just to run a sound board when a staffer can accomplish the exact same thing? "Talented tech students" would likely MUCH rather get actual summer intern work in music studios or record labels instead of drum and bugle corps summers (where they'd have to pay tuition), and the experience gained for EQ'ing a drum corps nightly would not really benefit most tech students. As it is now, those same tech students can get PAID for running a DCI board: why should they revert to not getting paid/having to pay?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 How about this? We keep hearing about how shows are so much better visually today compared to 40 years ago. Those few who crave the extra degree of precision of a more military style drill or guard are resoundingly outvoted by those who appreciate the demand and achievement of faster moves, higher tosses and acrobatics, or the artistry of dance, acting and props. Modern scoring/judging rewards these risks, and accepts some degree of imperfection as a fair tradeoff. Why has music received the opposite approach? Is it possible that this is part of the frustration that compels people to propose changes that redefine GE, or rebalance music versus visual in the overall scoring? I'm not sure what you mean here about music "receiving the opposite approach." I think musicians in all sections are FAR better as a whole than they were 40 years ago. The brass ensembles are MUCH better in tune, are playing far more difficult technical stuff well, etc. Percussionists are playing higher demand stuff more musically than ever before, and front ensemble percussionists are learning amazing technique and skill sets. I aged-out in 1998, and drum corps are achieving FAR more musically than they were even 15ish years ago, let alone 40! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Holland Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I believe DCI tried this the first season or so w/electronics and it just led to problems. Just about every marching circuit in the pageantry world allows staffers to have control over that, why should DCI devolve back to how it was, take a member off the field performing + have him pay thousands of dollars just to run a sound board when a staffer can accomplish the exact same thing? "Talented tech students" would likely MUCH rather get actual summer intern work in music studios or record labels instead of drum and bugle corps summers (where they'd have to pay tuition), and the experience gained for EQ'ing a drum corps nightly would not really benefit most tech students. As it is now, those same tech students can get PAID for running a DCI board: why should they revert to not getting paid/having to pay?! I do not believe that its ever been required to have a MM operate the elex. Some may have tried without actually getting a qualified member to operate, but I don't believe its ever been a rule that it had to be a member. I also can't find a rule stating it in any form. Now this activity isn't about what the tech's accomplish nor are they evaluated as a part of the performance. If a component of the performance counts for the overall score of the group, that should be produced by a member of the ensemble, not a staff member. You don't have staff conducting, or playing instruments like you have sometimes in DCA. Everything that gets scored during a performance is from the membership. Also I think you're making assumptions about what music tech interns actually want or can handle. This isn't high school band where you have a 17 year old kid to manage a system dealing with flutes, clarinets, voices..etc etc etc. this is a higher level where the students are mostly college age, and are coming in with training to handle this. If you've been in a studio, you'd see the interns schlepping cable and gear, labeling mics, rarely getting paid for their summer, they save up to pay for their rent while they are interning for these companies, they make coffee and go shopping for hospitality groceries, they sweep floors, and have very little to do in regards to mixing, editing, etc or any artistic weight in the products created. They are there more to observe than to participate. This is another way for DCI to give a student an opportunity, level the competition during performance, and to help promote the tech side of music. So don't degrade the engineer position by saying "just to run a sound board". That's a load of malarky when the product of a student's summer on tour is a CD or sound file they had a hand in creating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I aged-out in 1998, and drum corps are achieving FAR more musically than they were even 15ish years ago, let alone 40! For quality and technicality of musicians, I can't argue there. Current DCI ensembles blow older DCI ensembles out of the water. As far as musical scoring, however, I'm not sure we just haven't taken a step sideways rather than forward. I'd be curious to hear the timings on this, but it sure feels like brass play less than they used to, and of course the demand placed by the visual (faster, faster, faster) has not only demanded so many tempo changes that a great many works have their melodic passages broken up, but a good number of "classics" aren't even considered appropriate as the tempos don't work anymore. And after watching the 2015 shows again recently, both Phantom and Cavaliers covered up traditional drum features with singing, to the point where you could see the feature, but not cleanly hear it. That's worrisome if it catches on. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 One could argue that it's not necessary to have a sound engineer on the field, only that they can't have one off the field. That is, no cables or wireless connection crossing the boundary, except one power cord provided by the venue. If the sound board work is too complex for the keyboardist or other performer to do, then maybe it shouldn't be done. I did sound for a public access TV show, but it was very simple. Various lavalier and other mics and intro/outro music. Timed fades and queuing up music to a proper count. Front ensemble kids could certainly do that. The timpanist does the fade while the keyboardist produces the effect. Nobody needs to pay a tour fee just to do simple audio. (Didn't BD 2011 have a sound board person on the field? And that sound was layered and gorgeous. So I think it's possible). I realize what they actually do can be much more complex, but I don't hear anything in the result that convinces me it's necessary or couldn't be done by software on a laptop. However, you would still need a knowledgeable intern/staff to set up/ break down and store the equipment. So the constant issues with sound shouldn't be increased or decreased. I support this as an idea that probably wouldn't do much harm, and many people would love. But I'm no audio expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 For quality and technicality of musicians, I can't argue there. Current DCI ensembles blow older DCI ensembles out of the water. As far as musical scoring, however, I'm not sure we just haven't taken a step sideways rather than forward. I'd be curious to hear the timings on this, but it sure feels like brass play less than they used to, and of course the demand placed by the visual (faster, faster, faster) has not only demanded so many tempo changes that a great many works have their melodic passages broken up, but a good number of "classics" aren't even considered appropriate as the tempos don't work anymore. And after watching the 2015 shows again recently, both Phantom and Cavaliers covered up traditional drum features with singing, to the point where you could see the feature, but not cleanly hear it. That's worrisome if it catches on. Mike Hmmm: from a design standpoint, the comparison from now to then is interesting. I think brass-wise designers are maybe "cramming" more technical stuff in a shorter amount of time in order to add more visual demand (i.e. less time 'on the clock' per say of playing, but same amount of stuff checklisted as far as 16th runs, park-and-bark stuff, etc). I think percussion are playing more, and design trends seem to be front ensemble carrying more phrases than they used to. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, and I would maybe argue it's better for the overall product. But I think if the argument is "more quality, less quantity" it's a win for all. Musically phrases seem to develop faster and change more often than decades ago, and different tastes vary from fan-to-fan I suppose. I personally am 100% OK with "quality over quantity," even if arrangements are at times not my personal preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Here's BD 2011. Looks like the drummer is using a small sound board, but the clip is too short to see if he actually does anything. However, as soon as we cut away from this a high pitched sound effect kicks in and then an audio clip of singing. So I think it can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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