Most traditional 2016 shows?

[Hrothgar15]

Just curious, since those seem to be the ones I like most each season. (As far as the meaning of "traditional," I think it's safe to say somewhere around 25 years ago, early '90s.) It's a little harder to adjust to going to shows in June after listening to and watching a ton of 1988-2002 material throughout the off-season, but there is usually enough from that era still present today to keep me coming back, depending on the corps and season.

Actually a good litmus test for this is to look at the first piece of the show and see if there's an extended percussion feature about a minute in. This is usually an indication of modern "WGI-style" show design that is becoming more and more common in the DCI world. More traditional (again, '90s traditional) designs will usually postpone a percussion feature until after the full ensemble has had the chance to play an entire piece, or at least near the end of the first piece. Other signs of a less-than-traditional design are (of course) narration, choreography over drill, arranging snippets of many pieces of music in sequence instead of clear, single charts, and embracing marching band instrumentation (trombones, synths) at the forefront. But the biggest differentiator to me is the hornline and drumline serving as a "sound effect" provider used to portray a theme, as opposed to the ensemble itself performing a piece being the focus of the show.

I've only seen previews of a few shows this season, and the types of designs seem to spread across the spectrum, so it's shaping up to be an exciting season with a lot of variety.

Which shows that you've managed to catch peeks of stand out in your mind as being particularly traditional DCI-style, and which come across as particularly modern WGI-style?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Hrothgar15

[swmstom]

I've seen video of two shows so far, Crown and Scouts. Now yes, I see the drum corps world through my Green glasses, but I think the reason I dig this year's Madison show is because it is very much a traditional show. It has the things shows have to have to be competitive...ie, clear theme, body movement, etc....but if you're looking for traditional as far as fast, complex drill, screaming sopranos/trumpets, LOUD in your face horn book, recognizable and accesible music...it's about as traditional as you could ask for. It mixes, very well, the modern with the past.

[cfirwin3]

I dunno... some of those early 90's shows were out there... pushing toward the future. If Blue Devils 1991, 1993 and Star 1993 (among a few others) could have used electronics, they would have. And those are some beloved shows.

Don't get me wrong, I completely appreciate your point and your question...

But to quote that great philosopher, Billy Joel, from his pragmatist work titled"keeping the Faith"...

"... the good old days weren't always good and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems..."

Edited June 20, 2016 by cfirwin3

[cixelsyd]

Just curious, since those seem to be the ones I like most each season. (As far as the meaning of "traditional," I think it's safe to say somewhere around 25 years ago, early '90s.) It's a little harder to adjust to going to shows in June after listening to and watching a ton of 1988-2002 material throughout the off-season, but there is usually enough from that era still present today to keep me coming back, depending on the corps and season.

Actually a good litmus test for this is to look at the first piece of the show and see if there's an extended percussion feature about a minute in. This is usually an indication of modern "WGI-style" show design that is becoming more and more common in the DCI world. More traditional (again, '90s traditional) designs will usually postpone a percussion feature until after the full ensemble has had the chance to play an entire piece, or at least near the end of the first piece. Other signs of a less-than-traditional design are (of course) narration, choreography over drill, arranging snippets of many pieces of music in sequence instead of clear, single charts, and embracing marching band instrumentation (trombones, synths) at the forefront. But the biggest differentiator to me is the hornline and drumline serving as a "sound effect" provider used to portray a theme, as opposed to the ensemble itself performing a piece being the focus of the show.

Just having a "theme" (or more properly put, the implicit requirement to have a theme) is one of the most significant differentiating factors in modern vs. traditional design.

[cfirwin3]

Just having a "theme" (or more properly put, the implicit requirement to have a theme) is one of the most significant differentiating factors in modern vs. traditional design.

I think it has become about the implicit requirement to have an explicit theme. As long as we have had show titles, we have had 'themes'. The difference is that themes used to be able to be both implicit than explicit. Of course, there is some debate over this assertion today as a show like "Tilt", which was very implicit in it's theme, was highly successful. So the complaint may be 'much to do of nothing'... coming more from the perception of enthusiasts than the judging community itself.

[BRASSO]

This thread topic has started perhaps a month or so too soon, imo. Besides, classifying any Corps show now with more " traditional " , aspects to it, just might be the kiss of death placement and scoring wise. Do judges tend to reward " traditional " based shows, or " more " modern" shows ? Its clearly the latter. When has a " traditional show "with more traditional aspects to it " medaled lately ? So please, if you desire your favorite Corps to do well scoring wise, its best to say right now that your favorite corps is really " modernistic "uniform wise, and really out there, show design programming wise, that it will make a WGI type, guard oriented show ,look like 100 year old " traditional " Brittish Tattoo competition. Don't diminish your favorite Corps chances right now by even utilizing the word " traditional " for ANY aspect of your Corps 2016 production. Its almost like a 1st grade teacher hearing you use a swear word in class. Anybody here want to go to the Principal's office then be sent home to face your parents ? If not, then my advice is to not use this swear word on DCP or elsewhere for the next 8 weeks.

Edited June 20, 2016 by BRASSO

[wesleyrp]

Agreed Brasso. Same concept I just posted on in Uni Thread. We're so quick to label something traditional or modern, let's give everyone a chance to get on the field before labeling. Traditional gets looked at as old school, but I'd argue that even those fitting into that line of thinking are still very modern in their thinking. For instance, is anyone expecting Madison 99? I'm sure while same source music, it's going to be much more modern and forward thinking in design. SCV with their Les Mis or Scheherazade shows could've just been old school drum corps, but wasn't. I think slapping a label on a corps either way is not the best line of thinking at this point. I get trends, I get the modern vs traditional idea, but it's a bit early to group just yet:)

Wes P

[cfirwin3]

This thread topic has started perhaps a month or so too soon, imo. Besides, classifying any Corps show now with more " traditional " , aspects to it, just might be the kiss of death placement and scoring wise. Do judges tend to reward " traditional " based shows, or " more " modern" shows ? Its clearly the latter. When has a " traditional show "with more traditional aspects to it " medaled lately ? So please, if you desire your favorite Corps to do well scoring wise, its best to say right now that your favorite corps is really " modernistic "uniform wise, and really out there, show design programming wise, that it will make a WGI type, guard oriented show ,look like 100 year old " traditional " Brittish Tattoo competition. Don't diminish your favorite Corps chances right now by even utilizing the word " traditional " for ANY aspect of your Corps 2016 production. Its almost like a 1st grade teacher hearing you use a swear word in class. Anybody here want to go to the Principal's office then be sent home to face your parents ? If not, then my advice is to not use this swear word on DCP or elsewhere for the next 8 weeks.

This sounds fairly 'alarmist' to me. Consider that this perceived charge against the judging community has been around since well before we got to this point. I think that there is a mistaken association of terms going on here. It seems to me that we pigeon hole terms and ideas in such a way that they lose some of their meaning.

To push the argument to absurdity... consider the competitive relationship between a show from the 60's with a show from the 90's. The truth is that they aren't even the same activity by comparison... so it's useless to draw one in an effort to prove a point. Now, drumcorps in this decade is similar to that of the 90's, but it's different enough. I think that if we are going to use terms like "traditional" and "modern", we have to view both of them through a lens that projects a contemporary version of each.

Electronics are not used by corps today, because they 'must use them, or else!'... but rather because it has become a normal part of idiom (to the dismay of some). It seems that "traditional" should have a limited context of repertoire and general field staging. That being said...

The 2016 Crown is every bit as modern as Star of Indiana 1991 with music and movement, yet every bit as traditional as Star of Indiana 1987 with respect to staging (Star 1987 was pretty crazy stuff).

The other part of your suggestion that I would take issue with is the element of 'chance' in the way that you view medalists over the past few years. The first corps that I thought of was SCV 2014. They played that Les Miserables show in 2013 and the Scheherazade show followed the next year... they placed 4th both times. They placed 4th not because of their traditional presentation (and I think that is as traditional as you can get in this contemporary setting) but rather because of a number of other elements that were very easy to observe with respect to cleanliness and performance. None the less, those were contending "traditional" shows.

All of that being said... Cadets have a fairly traditional show this year when you really think about it. And they will probably do very well... for good reason.

Edited June 20, 2016 by cfirwin3

[BRASSO]

To push the argument to absurdity... consider the competitive relationship between a show from the 60's with a show from the 90's. The truth is that they aren't even the same activity by comparison....

.

We are on the exact same page with this. Even the judging system is completely different. There is virtually no competitive relationship at all with today, with back then. Other than the participants all work very hard at their craft and most will derive life long skill development from their participation that should benefit them exceedingly well in their adult life. You are preaching to the choir here when you tell me we really can't compare from a competitive sense entities that virtually have little in common anymore. Heck, I've even said before on here, that the Blue Devils of 2014, 2015 would not finish in the top 12 if we utilized the judging system in place in the 60's-80's, and had BD of 2014, 2015 compete with these BITD Corps. I don't see how they'd be much disagreement with us and others on here on this point either,. So I agree with you that comparing Corps and their shows from BITD with today, from a competitive standpoint, is a non productive endeavor, imo. That said, like anything else, one can say what they like or don't like. That never goes out of style, and is always appropriate to make from a comparison standpoint. We compare what we like among the Corps now, so its appropriate to broaden that to a larger time horizon as well, it seems to me.

Edited June 20, 2016 by BRASSO

[cfirwin3]

We are on the exact same page with this. Even the judging system is completely different. There is virtually no competitive relationship at all with today, with back then. Other than the participants all work very hard at their craft and most will derive life long skill development from their participation that should benefit them exceedingly well in their adult life. You are preaching to the choir here when you tell me we really can't compare from a competitive sense entities that virtually have little in common anymore. Heck, I've even said before on here, that the Blue Devils of 2014, 2015 would not finish in the top 12 if we utilized the judging system in place in the 60's-80's, and had BD of 2014, 2015 compete with these BITD Corps. I don't see how they'd be much disagreement with us and others on here on this point either,. So I agree with you that comparing Corps and their shows from BITD with today, from a competitive standpoint, is a non productive endeavor, imo. That said, like anything else, one can say what they like or don't like. That never goes out of style, and is always appropriate to make from a comparison standpoint. We compare what we like among the Corps now, so its appropriate to broaden that to a larger time horizon as well, it seems to me.

I think our only disagreement (if I understand you correctly) is on the premise that shows that are 'called' or are in practice more "traditional" (even through a contemporary lens) are not likely to be competitive.

I'm not sure that I could agree with that (even if we could find an agreeable definition of traditional among us all ).

For the sake of more discussion... heck, why not?... It seems to me that competitiveness (apart from the voodoo that is entirely part of judging subjectivity) requires one thing in particular, but not necessarily the same thing for everybody. 'Innovation' has always been required to win. Innovation has many forms though... it can be the obvious (such as unique voicing or staging) but it can also be accomplished through depth of emotion, or programmatic gobbledygook just as much as it can be accomplished in consistent minimalism or the focus on a singular idea/word.

I think judges are just looking for a group to DO something... even if it is digging deep into a traditional theme. You may be right that we haven't had a group "win" on that lately (like Phantom in 1996)... but I don't think that demonstrates that a group CAN'T do so, or that they would be doomed to try. In a way Crown in 2013 came kinda close to this. They used minimalism, but that had been done before, long ago. That show was really quite traditional (vocals aside... which was mostly part of the source music).