Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design

[BDCorno]

6 hours ago, Candid Insight said:

Although I am new to DCP I have been involved in the activity as a marching member, instructor, arranger, and judge for over 4 decades (brass).

Because of that, I have seen the transitions the activity has made and the posts in this thread reflect a breadcrumb trail of the progression, plus the diverse perspectives people have regarding the design changes we now see.  Although I am an older fan, I appreciate most of the innovation that we are seeing.

Park and play has become a staple for corps for the 'compulsory' sixteenth note segments seemingly written into all all brass programs. Some corps do it (play while not moving) more than others (as noted with Blue Devils). Even the 'walking to the next set' approach is not particularly offensive to me if well coordinated and not drawn out.  What seems a bit unfair is when one top 5 corps (Corps A) walks to the next set for their transitions and does a ton of park and play while another top 5 corps (Corps B) delivers a continuous orchestrated and difficult visual design, and much less park and play, yet Corps B gets lower scores.  This seems to reward a corps for attempting less.

An example from 2016 is Crown versus Blue Devils.  Both corps performed at an extremely high level.  Crown had very little 'park and play', and no significant walking to the next set in their show.  The Blue Devils had significant 'park and play' and quite a bit of 'less organized' transitions.  I appreciated both shows very much, but it seemed Crown got less credit in the content areas, specifically lower scores in Visual Analysis and Music Analysis.  From my perspective, it seems easier to perform while stationary and visual sets that are 'free form' act as almost as a 'break' from the visual being judged. Some people will disagree and cite Blue Devils' less organized transitions are part of their design and should get higher credit. I enjoy a difficult brass passage played well, and I think doing that on the move should get more credit. Personal preferences are huge and artistry is very subjective, so I know many people have a totally different take on this.  I am not saying that Crown should have been above Devils in overall scoring.  I am just pointing to those specific scores.  In my opinion, the brass books and performance levels were equivalent and since Crown attempted more they should not (in my opinion) have been under Devils in those specific captions.

Many of my friends are highly critical of the Blue Devils for doing less yet scoring more.  Some of them actually LOOK for where the Devils 'do less', even timing the amount of the park and play segments.  I try to look past the scores and just appreciate the incredible performances of all the corps.  My thanks to the original poster - this thread was interesting to read.

 

 

 

I'm sorry bro (assuming you're a guy), but you have no clue what you're talking about. What you assert is clearly false. Have you ever taken the time to look at high cams of Crown and BD in 2016? You really should, so that you can see how wrong you are about "park and play" between the two groups. Crown parks and plays way more than BD, they just do it more often for less time in each event. Maybe you consider standing and "shaking the #### off your shoe", "adjusting your junk", "squats" and "leg kicks" as "marching", but Crown is king of that approach. Masking the fact they're standing around by doing all this noodling around or close-proximity moves to distract you from the fact that they're really not moving. Their overall marching (44%) to standing around (38%) to running/walking to sets (18%) is surprising to you, isn't it? In addition, much of the marching isn't when they're playing. It's apparent that you missed the fact that anything difficult that Crown plays is in a static position (with some of the shake and bake to distract). Don't get me wrong, it's well done, everything is in context, but if you don't pay attention, you won't realize what's going on. Wonderful horn line there that plays their ##### off, but the relative difficulty of book plus marching difficulty and movement between Crown and BD isn't even close. Loved both shows, I would have been fine if either had won last year. You might want to look at those videos...Crown didn't attempt more.

P.S. - There is nothing "less organized" about BD and their transitions. If you think for a moment that they're throwaways or somehow poorly put together, you're sadly mistaken.
 

[BDCorno]

3 hours ago, ThirdValvesAreForWimps said:

I saw BD play "Legend" live in 1976 and 1978 before I was old enough to march.  It  profoundly affected me as a young trumpet player.  

That tape is amazing.  Do not forget that song was played with piston-rotor bugles.

Was in both of those corps. Jim is sorely missed...he was our arranger and middle horn instructor until he took off to Spirit. Great man, talented musician and arranger, and a truly nic person. I cherish the rehearsal time I had under his tutelage, and his "legacy of loud" still lives through my horn. I always feel for horn players to my right when Mahler is on the program. :D

[Stu]

3 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

There are no DCI designers.

DCI has been, and still is, an inbred circular organization. Let’s walk through this:

A) DCI is not a separate entity apart from the voting corps; DCI actually ‘is’ (David Gibbs, George Hopkins, David Glasgow, Chris Lugo, and all of the other Member Corps Directors with voting privileges).  Heck, even Dan Acheson can only manage what those Corps Directors tell him to manage.

B) DCI, as in these Voting Members, get together periodically to adjust and set the rules 'to their own collective pleasure', define the adjudicating criteria 'according to their own collective pleasure', and also dictate how the judging sheets will be interpreted by the adjudicators.

C) Then the Directors like Gibbs of BD, Glasgow of Coats, etc… go to their respective Corps and have their own corps design teams construct shows designed to match the artistic direction criteria 'in which they themselves just set as the standard to achieve'. Directors who do not follow this path of show design construction do so at their own peril, or they just flat do not care about the competitive aspects of the institution (see Jersey Surf and Pioneer).

D) The DCI trained adjudicators (as in trained to the directives of the Member Corps Directors standards and who themselves are mostly former DCI corps performers and staff members), are to fairly assess the performances each season based on that year's sheet definitions prescribed by DCI (the voting Corps Directors); it matters not the final ranking so long as the judges fairly evaluated each performance according to the sheet and design standards set forth by DCI (the voting Corps Directors).

E) Thus while the Directors in DCI do not collectively design specific individual corps shows, DCI ‘is’ the voting Directors like Gibbs, etc…, and DCI certainly does dictate the direction of what design philosophy will progress forward in scoring within DCI.

Therein is the inbred circular situation concerning the direction of show designs being under the control of DCI.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Stu

[MikeRapp]

26 minutes ago, Stu said:

DCI has been, and still is, an inbred circular organization. Let’s walk through this:

A) DCI is not a separate entity apart from the voting corps; DCI actually ‘is’ (David Gibbs, George Hopkins, David Glasgow, Chris Lugo, and all of the other Member Corps Directors with voting privileges).  Heck, even Dan Acheson can only manage what those Corps Directors tell him to manage.

B) DCI, as in these Voting Members, get together periodically to adjust and set the rules 'to their own collective pleasure', define the adjudicating criteria 'according to their own collective pleasure', and also dictate how the judging sheets will be interpreted by the adjudicators.

C) Then the Directors like Gibbs of BD, Glasgow of Coats, etc… go to their respective Corps and construct shows designed to match the artistic direction criteria 'in which they themselves just set as the standard to achieve'. Directors who do not follow this path of show design construction do so at their own peril, or they just flat do not care about the competitive aspects of the institution (see Jersey Surf and Pioneer).

D) The DCI trained adjudicators (as in trained to the directives of the Member Corps Directors standards and who themselves are mostly former DCI corps performers and staff members), are to fairly assess the performances each season based on that year's sheet definitions prescribed by DCI (the voting Corps Directors); it matters not the final ranking so long as the judges fairly evaluated each performance according to the sheet and design standards set forth by DCI (the voting Corps Directors).

E) Thus while the Directors in DCI do not collectively design specific individual corps shows, DCI ‘is’ the voting Directors like Gibbs, etc…, and DCI certainly does dictate the direction of what design philosophy will progress forward in scoring within DCI.

Therein is the inbred circular situation concerning the direction of show designs being under the control of DCI.

An extremely detailed and long winded explanation of what I tried to say, albeit much more briefly.

The corps don't work for DCI. The corps *are* DCI. 

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

An extremely detailed and long winded explanation of what I tried to say, albeit much more briefly.

The corps don't work for DCI. The corps *are* DCI. 

Thus DCI, being ‘the corps’, actually does dictate the design and artistic philosophical direction of the corps. Which was, is, my contention.

[MikeRapp]

This entire discussion can be summed up this way:

What appeals to some, does not appeal to others, and vice versa. But it is inarguable, imo, that the emphasis on guard contributions has vastly broadened the audience for drum corps in general. Some may like it, some may not, but to say it has hampered the growth of the activity is just flat out false. 

If you don't like a corps focusing more on guard, don't buy their merch.

[MikeRapp]

10 minutes ago, Stu said:

Thus DCI, being ‘the corps’, actually does dictate the design and artistic philosophical direction of the corps. Which was, is, my contention.

 

I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

Regardless, DCI doesn't operate in a vacuum. Yes it is very insular, but all of the corps have a budget that is largely met by selling tickets and merch, and garnering admiration from potential marching members.

It benefits no one "in" DCI to operate under a creative philosophy that "serves" a particular set of interests that doesn't appeal to the fans, and even less the marching members.

[Stu]

15 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

It benefits no one "in" DCI to operate under a creative philosophy that "serves" a particular set of interests that doesn't appeal to the fans, and even less the marching members.

And therein is the rub. At some point the directors with the most DCI influential power switched from the idea that serving the 'audince' is entertainment (treating them as fans) over to serving the 'audience' is educating them on the aspects of progressing the art form (treating them as students not fans). And I will admit tht since 2013 it has gone more back to serving via entertainment

Edited July 9, 2017 by Stu

[Stu]

So, back to the itchy scratchy synthy gooey runny choppy impacty chordy sounds that exist in many of the corps post-Y2K shows that enhance the visual, but are not at all melodic in nature with no comprehensible musucal phrasing whatsoever...

Edited July 10, 2017 by Stu

[afd]

Ah. If someone has to write over 5 paragraphs to make a point you have way much time on your hands. This is drumcorp not world events. I follow if for enjoyment. That's all.