Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Cappybara said: I think the current members are getting a better music and ARTS education (after all, this activity has always been about the arts) than they ever have before. To say they are being cheated is borderline irresponsible imo. 29 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: Well, one aspect of artistic design is required to put any show on the field. Not every corps does it the same. If you don't like how Cadets or BD do show designs, march with Bluecoats, Crossmen or Academy. No one is sentencing these kids to a corps beyond their choice. You are acting as if the kids are being taken advantage of, and I guarantee you virtually none of them feel that way at the end of a summer. Just now, MikeD said: Potential members audition for the corps they like and admire. They aren't drafted into a corps against their will.The band I teach had a tech who was born adn raised in NJ, yet chose to march BD. Why? He loved their shows, style and corps culture/philosophy. So he flew over every other corps in the country to march where he wanted to march. Pretty common, I would say. The weird thing here is that I agree with all three of you; so maybe ‘cheated’ is the wrong word. So, let me come at it from this angle: It is in my opinion that when an activity presents both the artistic aspects of music and visual, it is a disservice when one of those aspects dictates and runs ramrod over the other. And the activity rises to the highest level of artistic presentation when both aspects (Musical Composition that is melodically sound with comprehensible phrasing and Visual Movement that is mesmerizing and communicative) are married together with equal importance by the design team. Edited July 10, 2017 by Stu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 40 minutes ago, Stu said: Feeling cheated and being cheated are two different things. Whether you feel it or not, when one aspect of artistic design is ramrodded over another you are cheated. Potential members audition for the corps they like and admire. They aren't drafted into a corps against their will.The band I teach had a tech who was born adn raised in NJ, yet chose to march BD. Why? He loved their shows, style and corps culture/philosophy. So he flew over every other corps in the country to march where he wanted to march. Pretty common, I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, MikeD said: Potential members audition for the corps they like and admire. They aren't drafted into a corps against their will.The band I teach had a tech who was born adn raised in NJ, yet chose to march BD. Why? He loved their shows, style and corps culture/philosophy. So he flew over every other corps in the country to march where he wanted to march. Pretty common, I would say. added your quote here to my previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, Stu said: The weird thing here is that I agree with all three of you; so maybe ‘cheated’ is the wrong word. So, let me come at it from this angle: It is in my opinion that when an activity presents both the artistic aspects of music and visual, it is a disservice when one of those aspects dictates and runs ramrod over the other. And the activity rises to the highest level of artistic presentation when both aspects (Musical Composition that is melodically sound with comprehensible phrasing and Visual Movement that is mesmerizing and communicative) are married together with equal importance by the design team. The members are not composing this music, nor are they being taught to compose the music. They are being taught technique (both marching and musically), balance, blend, teamwork, leadership, responsibility, etc. they aren't just being taught music and visual. I'm not sure why music that isn't true to the original work is considered a disservice to the members Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Cappybara said: The members are not composing this music, nor are they being taught to compose the music. They are being taught technique (both marching and musically), balance, blend, teamwork, leadership, responsibility, etc. they aren't just being taught music and visual. I'm not sure why music that isn't true to the original work is considered a disservice to the members While the positive things you say they are being directly taught are true, the disservice in my opinion comes in them being implicitly taught that music within this activity is at the mercy of, and is to be dictated by, the visual design. And I admit it is because I am a musician not a dancer that influences my opinion. But even if I were a dancer, I would not want the performers implicitly taught that one aspect should dictate and run ramrod over the other. Edited July 10, 2017 by Stu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 14 minutes ago, Stu said: The weird thing here is that I agree with all three of you; so maybe ‘cheated’ is the wrong word. So, let me come at it from this angle: It is in my opinion that when an activity presents both the artistic aspects of music and visual, it is a disservice when one of those aspects dictates and runs ramrod over the other. And the activity rises to the highest level of artistic presentation when both aspects (Musical Composition that is melodically sound with comprehensible phrasing and Visual Movement that is mesmerizing and communicative) are married together with equal importance by the design team. Personally, I think each design team is looking to create just those things you correctly note above. Where the difference may lie is in listening/looking a a current show and accepting that what the designers are doing is exactly that. Shows have changed over time. Blessed Sac, my personal favorite growing up, used to come off the line to "National Emblem" march often through the 50's and 60's, doing linear drills of 4 man squad moves. That would not cut it today. Shows today are coordinated productions of music and visual to sell the total show. It is more like a Broadway show or ballet than an old-style show. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing is in the eyes and ears of the beholder. Actually, today's shows are conceptually close to what Garfield, Madison, St Rita's and partially the Cavies did in 1971 with our total show themes. Heck, we even passed out a libretto explaining the show, a decade before Phantom did the same thing. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Stu said: While the positive things you say they are being directly taught are true, the disservice in my opinion comes in them being implicitly taught that music within this activity is at the mercy of, and is to be dictated by, the visual design. And I admit it is because I am a musician not a dancer that influences my opinion. But even if I were a dancer, I would not want the performers implicitly taught that one aspect should dictate and run ramrod over the other. Many members of these corps will become musicians, yes, but many are also not. In addition, how many of the musicians in the corps will be involved in the marching arts specifically later? Drum corps and marching band in general is such a niche activity, and with school districts around the country axing music education (thanks for the further cut in the education budget you know who), it is becoming even further so. That leaves the small group of musicians who will become further involved in the marching arts. For them, you could make the argument that they are being disserviced. BUT at the same time, they aren't necessarily directly being told "hey, this is how music should be written." They are smart enough to know that traditional compositions (i.e. Compositions not combined with a visual element like in the marching arts) are composed in a different way. There is no misdirection going on. If they do want examples of marching compositions that stay closer to the source, there are countless shows to look back to in DCI's history. It would be a bad move, in my opinion, to completely change direction now. Young people are hooked with the new DCI and that is DCI's newest and future audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 46 minutes ago, MikeD said: Personally, I think each design team is looking to create just those things you correctly note above. Where the difference may lie is in listening/looking a a current show and accepting that what the designers are doing is exactly that. Shows have changed over time. Blessed Sac, my personal favorite growing up, used to come off the line to "National Emblem" march often through the 50's and 60's, doing linear drills of 4 man squad moves. That would not cut it today. Shows today are coordinated productions of music and visual to sell the total show. It is more like a Broadway show or ballet than an old-style show. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing is in the eyes and ears of the beholder. Actually, today's shows are conceptually close to what Garfield, Madison, St Rita's and partially the Cavies did in 1971 with our total show themes. Heck, we even passed out a libretto explaining the show, a decade before Phantom did the same thing. It is funny you mention Broadway Musicals. I can listen to an audio recording of pretty much any Broadway Musical and the music has melodic content with musical phrasing that is understandable apart from the visual. And that is also pretty much the case for DCI audio recordings pre-Y2K no matter if it was from the ‘70s, ‘80’s, or ‘90s; the music made ‘musical’ sense apart from the visual. However, many DCI post-Y2K shows have music with choppy melodic content, incomplete phrasing, Chords, Impacts, and random sounding rhythmic runs to the point that it is disturbingly disjunctive to just listen to on an audio only recording. And I have been contemplating as to why my favorite shows mainly come from the late eighties through the nineties even though my introduction to DCI was in the seventies and I have been actively involved ever since. As I look at the development of DCI show design: in the ‘70s to early ‘80s it appears to be mainly about solid musical composition with precision drill execution; then from the mid ‘80s through the nineties musical integrity and arranging shined as wonderful visual creativeness blossomed; then as we moved into post-Y2K era it began to be more, and more, and more about the Visual Spectacle with music becoming a mere foundational underpinning; in part due to the instrumental performers visual demands being so complex the music aspects had to give way. That is not true for all shows post-Y2K (ie Angels and Demons as well as Spartacus) but for the majority. Maybe at some point the pendulum will swing back to more of a design balance between music composition and visual display; but we shall see as the future unfolds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 37 minutes ago, Cappybara said: Many members of these corps will become musicians, yes, but many are also not. In addition, how many of the musicians in the corps will be involved in the marching arts specifically later? Drum corps and marching band in general is such a niche activity, and with school districts around the country axing music education (thanks for the further cut in the education budget you know who), it is becoming even further so. That leaves the small group of musicians who will become further involved in the marching arts. For them, you could make the argument that they are being disserviced. BUT at the same time, they aren't necessarily directly being told "hey, this is how music should be written." They are smart enough to know that traditional compositions (i.e. Compositions not combined with a visual element like in the marching arts) are composed in a different way. There is no misdirection going on. If they do want examples of marching compositions that stay closer to the source, there are countless shows to look back to in DCI's history. It would be a bad move, in my opinion, to completely change direction now. Young people are hooked with the new DCI and that is DCI's newest and future audience. Membership has been coming mainly through the ranks of MBA/BOA, UIL, TOB, etc... since the eighties. And it is rotational due to the age-out requirements. And I contend that it is that very rotational niche aspect which determines the relatively even number of fans in the stands at Finals from season to season to season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, Stu said: Membership has been coming mainly through the ranks of MBA/BOA, UIL, TOB, etc... since the eighties. And it is rotational due to the age-out requirements. And I contend that it is that very rotational niche aspect which determines the relatively even number of fans in the stands at Finals from season to season to season. What exactly does that have to do with what I said? i guess what I'm asking is, what's your point? Edited July 10, 2017 by Cappybara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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