Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design

[westcoastblue]

On July 8, 2017 at 3:15 PM, mirrormen said:

Three issues on which I would LOVE to hear other’s opinions:

 

Chop and Paste: Isn’t there artistic skill, craft, ingeniousness to developing a show that flows in a way that makes sense to your eyes and ears? Especially if YOU GET TO CHOOSE the show theme and name the production whatever you want? I know that not everyone’s eyes and ears, judge training, likes and dislikes/personal tastes, allow everyone to discern corps’ shows in the same way or at the same level, but the cut and paste approach of BD is distracting to me. It doesn’t mean there are not things about them I do like and appreciate- and there are years I felt the deserved to win. It seems that no one else either chooses to do, or gets to do such in the same way BD designs shows. I get that the talent level is stupid high and that they perform so well etc. Is it simply their style and you like it or don’t? They often go right from one style to the next, one tune to the next, with no set up, no connection to the show theme, etc.  I know I have lost of other corps to enjoy, but I really do want better appreciate what they do. 

 

Standing and Playing/Demand. I know it has been brought up a lot, but . . . BD’s brass stand and play for six minutes this year. I know that may change. Seems they would have to play sooooo much better than all other horn lines to win brass. I get that there are various types of demand. This issue for me also plays into the fact that they walk around a lot this year. That too may be changed. If the perfect visual marriage for the music I am hearing is people walking around, seemingly completely disengaged, fine. This year and years past there are always three or four moments where they could not work out a guard transition so they tell those members to just walk over to where they need to be for the next section. Again, totally disengaged. If the GE and show design goal is 100% perfection of the craft of putting a show together where the details of production, marriage of visual and audio, and performance quality and delivery of the members is so spot on, every audience member is completely engaged the entire show, why are these issues okay, especially for the corps that supposedly more often than not sets the design standards? I know there is no such thing as the perfect effect show that will affect everyone equally, but I watch corps placing lower have none of these design issues.  My curiosity is high here because they often win GE. So apparently people are seeing and hearing a level of craft that I need help getting. 

 

Do they care if the audience likes it? Should a show require multiple critiques for the judges to learn about the show design intent before they can enjoy/reward the show design efforts fully? What about me- the paying audience member that wants to like BD better, but too often feels shut out of the show too frequently over the course of the show. The park and barks are usually well executed and sometimes exciting. There are at times additional moments that carry engagement and some emotional value. As soon as these moments seem to be flowing well, bam, we are taken 180 into something unrelated. The unexpected turn or twist can be an effect. I do not ever think such is their ammo. If seeing a film, or play, or ballet, or opera, etc. the careful crafting of every moment seems the goal. If they want people to see, hear, respect, and hopefully repeat viewings, it is the careful and thoughtful crafting that elevates the effect and the second ticket or recording or DVD bought. 

 

I am not trying to be snarky at all.  Would really appreciate how others view the BD design approach and subsequent high scores in GE. 

If you have not read the original post, I encourage that ya do. 

I have ignored this thread due to its title, which I find to be only slightly guilty of possibly maybe written to evoke some DCP rage, certainly from BD homers. BUT, after reading the initial post, I find it well written and not necessarily intend to poke the bear (or Devil as it were) but a legit request for help better appreciating BD show design. I wanted to post it again because like many threads, as this has progressed, it has become a defensive bashing minefield for some. Others have offered some great insights and theories. At the end of the day, to each his own- though that doesn't dismiss appreciating the fact that this poster is trying to expand his likes in the activity. In that regard, I too offer what some others have said- if you don't like the entire production, or how it flows, etc., find the moments you do like and enjoy those and the crazy performance level they bring to the field. Let the rest wash past you. Like a book or movie, or other corps, not every sentences, seen or phrase is perfect or perfectly suited for everyone. Peace. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by westcoastblue

[cowtown]

16 hours ago, Triple Forte said:

 And my million dollar question has always been why? Why has gone this route?  The expert call it  staging but I will tell you as a fan it looks a lot more like clutter ...

My opinion, BD couldn’t win as much as they wanted to under run and gun (90-2006) so they come up with something new. If you think back to the great drills or even watch ‘best of drill’ YouTube, not much from BD other than a few moments. On the 2006 DVD corps commentary their staff (I forget who) is whining and complaining they didn’t get enough credit for their drill. So they get 2007 out of the way as an anniversary show, it was very curvilinear with not a lot of defined forms, a weak drill compared to Cadets 2007  and in 2008 they make the change. The staging was a product of their running, high velocity drill in 2008 which they couldn’t clean. A good example is their opener, the big dot thing. They got full credit for it on the sheets so did more of it in 2009 including a 256 bpm crab step. To make 2009 visually effective, they watered the horn book, perhaps the weakest brass book content to win in the past 20 years. It worked. Cavies set the stage for sacrificing their horn line for visuals (but mainly performance) in the early 90s for a win so why not? Also in 2008, BD added a lot of body movement visual, partly as a response to Crown but also to push the Absurd show theme. 2010 was their FU to the fans but it allowed them some freedom to develop their visual style which was smoke and mirrors as up close at finals (I was in row 4) you noticed a lot of the stuff in the mirrors didn’t work, some did but much was played as if it did work knowing most couldn’t catch the details, and again, they got full credit. 2011 they went fan friendly and really perfected their visual style, one of their best marching corps ever. They hit this diagonal on the front hash that was text book, ever so clean, shame they supported a lot of the shows visuals guiding off of and lining up on props. Props greatly support this staging drill, an accept cheat and distraction, justification

So as the winner goes, DCI goes…and it was time for a shift, Cavies had played out their thing for the most part but for fun, watch Mad World overhead dome came from ATL and compared it to BD 2010 and see the disconnect in reward

I’m just pointing this stuff out as I watched it unfold and have been around, not a hater more a student of the game

And then the politics at the time, G7

[luv4corps]

On 7/8/2017 at 2:59 PM, jwillis35 said:

If I can be somewhat broader in my answer to this, I think we understand the chop & paste, park & bark, stage & act or dance a lot better by reviewing what happened in the late 80s and through the 90s. 

There was a time when the "concert number" (a standstill performance) was a part of a drum corps show, and believe it or not there was a time we loved it. Garfield's 83 show changed lots of things, but it was their 1984 show that flowed so seamlessly and never stopped for a concert number. Phantom, BD, SCV, and others all had full or partial concert numbers in 1984 (as did most others), but not Garfield. It wasn't just speed that became a signature of the Cadets, but it was the flow of the show, the constant motion and movement from segment to segment without too much stopping. 

As the 80s pushed on, speeds increased and drills became even more complicated. The 1990s, and in particular 1992 - 1999, were the decade of speedy drill. The "whiplash" movement as I often call it.  One only needs to go watch Star of Indiana 1991, 1992, 1993.  The Cadets 1990 - 1999. Even BD, Phantom, Madison, SCV and others joined in. But ultimately we saw drill pushed to its max, and often times not so cleanly.  Demand was all the rage and being clean seemed secondary.  I loved the 1990s but I know I was ready for a change.

The Cavaliers introduced a subtle change in the 2000s with speedy drill done in a minimalist and layered way. It was very kaleidoscopic (like their late 80s and 90s drill was) but with faster set changes yet more manageable step sizes and control of form. They often wrote around the guard.  They dominated the early 2000s, winning 5 titles in 7 years from 2000 - 2006.  

In 2008 things changed once again with Blue Devils introducing a new style, slightly modified from their 90s style, but with less emphasis on traditional drill and more on staging, play acting, body movement, dance, and a guard-driven approach.  Even more so, however, were little things like how they handled tempo transitions, key changes, and how they featured sections of the corps. Now, in fairness, BD was always good at not following the whiplash movement; but in 2008 it was like they said "we want to rethink traditional drill and guard integration."  They did. They have since refined this style. In my opinion they have hit pure magic with it during the 2010, 2014, 2015 shows. Their 2016 production was pretty darn good as well, as was 2009.  Their 2015 show, to me, is a taste of BD at their best. 

Sometimes they are able to chop and paste a lot of goodness into a show and make it work, even make it special. Sometimes I feel they miss the mark, even if they score well. As for this year, I would not count out this show.  I watched their Rose Bowl video (on YT) and also watch SCV, and to me the Blue Devils are packing more punch in music and even in visual during the first 5 or 6 minutes. SCV packs more punch visually late in the show, and musically they are about even. However, I believe BD is slowly adding the visual pieces to the back end. I saw some changes from Stanford that were fantastic, and I do believe once they complete the show it will be wonderful. Maybe a stunner. All depends on what they do. 

Admittedly, I think the OP brings up a good point. BD's style of design is dicey. Packing so much into a show and getting the music to settle and flow is difficult. Throw in the staging, drill, guard, and props and this is where we are today in DCI.

In a nutshell, when BD gets it right, it's downright magical!  But there have been those years where the music and total visual felt like someone rambling about nothing for 2 hours. We just notice this more with BD because of their exceptional performance levels, but there are plenty of shows that fail to connect musically or visually and for which the total design is haphazard and overly spliced to pieces.  

Thank you for this fantastic visual history lesson.  Loved it.

As for BD's show this year, I have to say that it is their first show where, in order to understand it,  I I DON'T have to have a masters's in literature/film/philosophy - or be an expert in DCI or BD history.  I GET THE SHOW.  This, IMO, is their most accessible, relatable show since I became a fan in 2010.  In fact, the show itself is a brief glimpse into old school drum corps and I love that about it.  

Going on pure visceral reaction, this show has chopped, pasted, parked and blown itself past the dial.  It's an 11.  

[Stu]

3 hours ago, cowtown said:

My opinion, BD couldn’t win as much as they wanted to under run and gun (90-2006)...

BD took the Gold 5 times during that time period, including an undefeated season; took the Silver another 5 times; and took the Bronze 3 times. That is a winning percentage of roughly 30% and a medal percentage of 75%. I agree with you that ‘to them’ they were not winning enough.

[Stu]

14 hours ago, Habs33 said:

Well for this one, you should certainly be standing. Arguably the best BD horn line ever. Time to give it up my friend.

As a member of ASCAP I am hard pressed to go to YouTube and see/listen to shows uploaded breaking Copyright Law, and I will not hear the 2017 Corps until Finals.  So, my opinions on most DCI Corps music arranging is based on 2016 and earlier; that I admit.

[Cappybara]

7 minutes ago, Stu said:

As a member of ASCAP I am hard pressed to go to YouTube and see/listen to shows uploaded breaking Copyright Law

[Jeff Ream]

11 hours ago, Stu said:

I concede that the basis of my conclusion is a conjecture; and you have deemed that as being flawed math.  However, in mathematics there actually are many different conjectures which are considered by mathematicians to be true; such as parallel lines and the sum of angles in a triangle.  So, it is not a reach on my part to formulate this particular conjecture because it does stand to reason that since there were way more corps in existence then as opposed to now, more kids and families were involved, and more shows were produced each year throughout the country, then there were likely also more overall fans attending the aggregate drum corps shows than today.

 

you can use what hypothesis you want, without actual numbers it's you being you and most likely not being right, just using big words and deflections to try and prove your many points

[Stu]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

you can use what hypothesis you want, without actual numbers it's you being you and most likely not being right, just using big words and deflections to try and prove your many points

So to you, your suppositions, opinions, and conjectures are  most likely correct and mine are most likely incorrect. Hmmmm.... Can you prove your hypothesis on that, or is it conjecture on your part?

[Hrothgar15]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:40 AM, drumcorpsfever said:

I came across this older thread on a similar subject of "Chop and Paste", aka "Chop n' Bop": 

Excerpts from mfrontz post:

“DCI corps beginning in the 90s and more predominantly in the 00s no longer exclusively present musical arrangements. Rather, they often use the building blocks of songs, pieces of music, and charts and arrange them in and out of order. They do this freely, so as to set a mood, highlight a section of the corps, tell a story, or illustrate a theme.”

“The 1995 Blue Devils use portions of Chick Corea's "Day Danse" to illustrate a section of their show "Carpe Noctem." The 2002 Cavaliers put the Frameworks melody through its paces not in order to present an interpretation of the chart "Frameworks," but to present a eleven-minute drum corps show with a coherent musical and visual theme, everything working together reinforcing the idea of a "frame." The 2003 Blue Devils freely use Dave Brubeck's material from "Blue Rondo a la Turk" to express the idea of "cool." The 2008 Crossmen use musical themes and motifs from "The Planets," in opposition to the 1985/95 Cavaliers who present an arrangement of "The Planets."

"Chopping," or "cutting-and-pasting," rather than being necessary in order to accommodate an arrangement to the timing and instrumental limitations of drum and bugle corps, now becomes a way for the arranger or designer to most effectively express the theme, tell the story, or expose the technical proficiency of the performers for maximum effect.

This seems entirely spot-on to me.

[Jeff Ream]

9 hours ago, Stu said:

So to you, your suppositions, opinions, and conjectures are  most likely correct and mine are most likely incorrect. Hmmmm.... Can you prove your hypothesis on that, or is it conjecture on your part?

i'm not claiming todays numbers are bigger than 30 years ago. I cited what DCI has released from recent years comparing to other recent years. I said before i'd wager more total fans saw shows 30 years ago when there were more shows to see corps at. I also know not all of those shows were sellouts. I still remember that night in 1990 in a HUGE HS stadium in Red Lion PA, tops 1000 people came to see Star, Cadets and other east coast corps