saxfreq1128 Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, MBo1974 said: That has always been my beef. Their achievement scores are deservedly at or near the top, but that should not (as it almost always does) translate to the GE boxes. Waaayyy too many of their shows that have won didn't seem to connect with many in any effective way. But that’s not what GE is measuring or even pretending to measure. A good reason this logic has no place in scoring, besides, is that people change their minds. We all know that some shows grow on you. Sometimes, they grow on you within a season. Sometimes it’s both within a season and over many years. Imagine if Star ‘93 had been evaluated via the fans. It’s good ###-covering for everyone who saw that show in 1993 to claim they love it now, but members and instructors tell a different story about how they were treated back then, even if the reception was warmer by Finals night. So which matters more — how people feel now, seeing the show as the masterpiece that it is, or how audiences (arguably ungenerously) felt then? There’s no retroactive “Fan favorite” award, let alone championship win. The last thing we should be advocating for is that drum corps designers stop experimenting and taking risks that may not appeal to everyone. I can’t tell you how often I’ve seen people say “I didn’t appreciate X show back in Y year, but now…” — and hardly just about the BD shows that weren’t fan favorites. I’m glad so many people have come around on the mirrors, the chairs, the dada coat hangers. And even gladder their anger at those shows didn’t impact the scores way back when. Edited July 28, 2022 by saxfreq1128 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBo1974 Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Cappybara said: I haven't seen the "sheets" in a long time, I believe someone had posted an older version of them years ago. But none of them included "show connects well with audience" on there. And why should it? It would reduce the variety of shows we get. There's room for both the crowd pleasing and esoteric shows in drum corps. I do believe DCI had amended the sheets at one point that would allow the judges to "consider" audience response but it is far from a major set of criteria for GE. GE is mostly about how well a corps communicates their show concept and how well the pieces of a show fit together and how well altogether do they deliver the effect/concept. And with keeping that in mind, BD does all of those things well. Esoteric shows aren't always a miss with the crowds ... see SCV, BK some years and some others. If connection to the audience isn't a big deal when it comes to the sheets, then that is a HUGE miss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBo1974 Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 2 hours ago, saxfreq1128 said: But that’s not what GE is measuring or even pretending to measure. A good reason this logic has no place in scoring, besides, is that people change their minds. We all know that some shows grow on you. Sometimes, they grow on you within a season. Sometimes it’s both within a season and over many years. Imagine if Star ‘93 had been evaluated via the fans. It’s good ###-covering for everyone who saw that show in 1993 to claim they love it now, but members and instructors tell a different story about how they were treated back then, even if the reception was warmer by Finals night. So which matters more — how people feel now, seeing the show as the masterpiece that it is, or how audiences (arguably ungenerously) felt then? There’s no retroactive “Fan favorite” award, let alone championship win. The last thing we should be advocating for is that drum corps designers stop experimenting and taking risks that may not appeal to everyone. I can’t tell you how often I’ve seen people say “I didn’t appreciate X show back in Y year, but now…” — and hardly just about the BD shows that weren’t fan favorites. I’m glad so many people have come around on the mirrors, the chairs, the dada coat hangers. And even gladder their anger at those shows didn’t impact the scores way back when. I am pretty sure that's not what I said, or I did not communicate it clearly enough. I am not talking about a fan favorite, or applause meter, but how crowds react to a show (and that is not always about applause) should be part of the metric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, MBo1974 said: Esoteric shows aren't always a miss with the crowds ... see SCV, BK some years and some others. If connection to the audience isn't a big deal when it comes to the sheets, then that is a HUGE miss. Maybe. Maybe not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 2 hours ago, saxfreq1128 said: But that’s not what GE is measuring or even pretending to measure. A good reason this logic has no place in scoring, besides, is that people change their minds. We all know that some shows grow on you. Sometimes, they grow on you within a season. Sometimes it’s both within a season and over many years. Imagine if Star ‘93 had been evaluated via the fans. It’s good ###-covering for everyone who saw that show in 1993 to claim they love it now, but members and instructors tell a different story about how they were treated back then, even if the reception was warmer by Finals night. So which matters more — how people feel now, seeing the show as the masterpiece that it is, or how audiences (arguably ungenerously) felt then? There’s no retroactive “Fan favorite” award, let alone championship win. The last thing we should be advocating for is that drum corps designers stop experimenting and taking risks that may not appeal to everyone. I can’t tell you how often I’ve seen people say “I didn’t appreciate X show back in Y year, but now…” — and hardly just about the BD shows that weren’t fan favorites. I’m glad so many people have come around on the mirrors, the chairs, the dada coat hangers. And even gladder their anger at those shows didn’t impact the scores way back when. I really respect the comments about Star. I remember thinking that they should have won though, and I felt that the reason they didn't WAS because they were so esoteric. Weird, but Cadets were a little esoteric too, imho. Cadets had a lot more meat in their show first tour that was butchered by finals, but Star just kept adding. Ancient history... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Guns Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, MBo1974 said: I am pretty sure that's not what I said, or I did not communicate it clearly enough. I am not talking about a fan favorite, or applause meter, but how crowds react to a show (and that is not always about applause) should be part of the metric. Personally for me, I am all for crowd reactions, applause meters and whatever stuff we can think of to be added to the sheets. Why?? Because the ABBD crowd has been screaming for years BD plays to the sheets. So if we add this audience stuff to the sheets........what's going to change? BD plays to the sheets! So BDs designers and staff will design a show to max out that audience caption (cause they play to the sheets) that will make us throw babies just as far as anyone else. Not directing this at you specifically, but to the ones I have seen over the years say that if this was to happen, BD wouldn't win anymore. Edited July 29, 2022 by Chief Guns 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxfreq1128 Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 1 hour ago, jjeffeory said: I really respect the comments about Star. I remember thinking that they should have won though, and I felt that the reason they didn't WAS because they were so esoteric. Weird, but Cadets were a little esoteric too, imho. Cadets had a lot more meat in their show first tour that was butchered by finals, but Star just kept adding. Ancient history... I so agree re Cadets. That’s what was so funny to me about 1993 when I finally got around to it over a decade later, and it’s why I always think about that example. I’m of the Blast! generation (lol) so musically, maybe I was primed for Star ‘93 in some ways, since Blast!’s finale was a Star throwback. I watched Star ‘93 and knew why it was radical for its moment, but it wasn’t so out-there for me given the aggressive, abstract DCI that made me fall in love with this activity (like SCV 2000 - stone cold classic). Cadets ‘93, however… I mean, my intro to Cadets was We Are the Future. Stonehenge. Stuff like that. I remember watching ‘93 and wondering why it was never described as a pretty strange show. I love that show for being so secretly strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legacy Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 4 hours ago, Cappybara said: I haven't seen the "sheets" in a long time, I believe someone had posted an older version of them years ago. But none of them included "show connects well with audience" on there. And why should it? It would reduce the variety of shows we get. There's room for both the crowd pleasing and esoteric shows in drum corps. I do believe DCI had amended the sheets at one point that would allow the judges to "consider" audience response but it is far from a major set of criteria for GE. GE is mostly about how well a corps communicates their show concept and how well the pieces of a show fit together and how well altogether do they deliver the effect/concept. And with keeping that in mind, BD does all of those things well. But what if that communication while clean is just boring (not much different from how they sounded the past 6/7 years) and not as exciting as other groups? That's where people get a bit phased I think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 25 minutes ago, legacy said: But what if that communication while clean is just boring (not much different from how they sounded the past 6/7 years) and not as exciting as other groups? That's where people get a bit phased I think. Then maybe you can petition with the corps to change the sheets. The corps are the ones who create and agree to the sheets, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legacy Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 20 minutes ago, Cappybara said: Then maybe you can petition with the corps to change the sheets. The corps are the ones who create and agree to the sheets, after all. I didn't realise this. Wonder whose opinions pgets weighted in those meetings... now I have to do some research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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