2023 Scores Question

[Jeff Ream]

8 hours ago, ContraFart said:

What you are explaining to me is numbers management. 

For example, why is it rare to have an achievement score higher than a comp score? Why do comp scores change from night to night if the show does not change? I know the answer you are going to give me, but I know that a horn line is trying to achieve a double tounging segment when I hear it whether its clean or not. 

Maybe you are right and DCI needs to more transparent to fans with how the adjudication works, but on the surface, accusations of bias and slotting are inevitable. 

it's not just numbers management. it's why the numbers are as they are and what needs to happen to have those numbers given out. See any 9's tonight? hell no. and i am sure the commentary given reflects how the judge landed at the number given. 

it's rare because that in essence means they performed what they were given so well that they could have tried more. 

 

why do comp scres change? as things get cleaner, the judge can see more inner details to raise the number and be rewarded. you're able to get those finer details....say a leg turn and hey the ankle does too! or holy cow listen to the inner phrase dynamic shifting between the voices! first read you'll never get those details.

 

slotting accusations have always happened and will, just as you see biased officiating claims in every sport known to man

[Jeff Ream]

6 hours ago, ContraFart said:

I knew you were going answer exactly that way. A drum or a brass judge should be able to read what they are attempting in their book pretty easily. Visual/GE on the other hand, I can see your point. Also during championship week where the book doesn't change and the top 20 should be very readable, I don't see why comp scores would change.

not even close early on. way too much phrasing and detailing has to be done yet musically. like i said before once readability improves with performance improvement there's so many details that come to life that can add to the comp number. 

 

conversely a comp number could go down if the skills arent performed well. i would imagine after tonight some comp numbers for Colts would go up once the electronics work the whole show. but hey if it craps out the following show, numbers coud slide backwards a little.

 

i think it was in 08 Bloo had the top end of the keyboards volume way toooo high...and the upstairs perc judge dropped the numbers. and they were right to do so

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, ContraFart said:

All of you are just going into judge speak and completely missing the point. I am interested in the competitive aspect of the activity. If the judges are so fallible, and we cannot count on any consistency, then how is the competition fair? It's okay to say that maybe this activity should not be competitive, but to say the results are infallible, while the judges and the system are flawed is nonsense to me. 

ok....follow baseball?

 

does every ump have the exact same strike zone? oh hell no ( looking at you Angel). But is it still fair? yup.

 

football....does every ref call holding the same way? nope. 

 

and those both have instant replay to boot...drum corps doesn't!

 

humans in any endeavour are not perfect. that doesn't mean it isn't fair. and the mythical every judge must think the same way and see exactly the same things isn't realistic. you're talking a live performance with up to 165 people involved all moving all over the place at varying speeds. plus you have a judging panel split between field and box. each with their own specific sheet and criteria. 

 

also....not sure if it has come up yet, but the judges can also go back and adjust numbers if need be. say you give the Privateer regiment a 88/85, and the Carolina  Cadets come out and throw down...90/89. But wait....the cavalier devils come out and yikes.....their books is better than the cadets, but the performance isn't. so you decide to adjust Carolina to 89/88, then give the devs 90 in book but the performance is 87. boom then you have established the box criteria in each sub box to get the total number that is to be reflected.

 

this back to 87 that so many people still gripe about....cadets got a 10/10 with a group to go. only thing that could ave been done if BD were better is to tie them in each box. Now, you could adjust to get it right

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, ContraFart said:

Its not like Crown percussion or SCV brass was finishing in 8th. Corps in the top 4 pretty much finished in the top 4 of all captions.  

no but.....BD was 3rd in one sub box...everything else was 1 or 2. Crown was 1 or 2 in brass and MA....but they even had sub boxs sitting as low as 6th or 7th on other sheets. when you add the numbers up and do the averages etc...that creates a gap in total score. the percussion score really helps SCV, because most others boxes fell between 3rd and 5th. Bloo had a bunch of 1'2 and 2's...but also a lot of 3's. even a 4 in guard. imagine that 4 was a 3....Bloo probably wins the show

[TheOneWhoKnows]

15 hours ago, ContraFart said:

I knew you were going answer exactly that way. A drum or a brass judge should be able to read what they are attempting in their book pretty easily. Visual/GE on the other hand, I can see your point. Also during championship week where the book doesn't change and the top 20 should be very readable, I don't see why comp scores would change.

 

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

why do comp scres change? as things get cleaner, the judge can see more inner details to raise the number and be rewarded. you're able to get those finer details....say a leg turn and hey the ankle does too! or holy cow listen to the inner phrase dynamic shifting between the voices! first read you'll never get those details.

Perfect preseason example I can give of a changing comp score. I've been watching Cadets spring training practically everyday. Their first ballad is absolutely wonderful, but overtime as they kept getting cleaner and cleaner and playing together, all these nuances and moving brass lines started to come through in the ballad and they are incredible. That is just a small example of how a comp score changes. Before you couldn't hear the moving lines and gradually they started to come through and add to the complexity and effectiveness of the ballad. 

[ContraFart]

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

ok....follow baseball?

 

does every ump have the exact same strike zone? oh hell no ( looking at you Angel). But is it still fair? yup.

 

football....does every ref call holding the same way? nope. 

 

and those both have instant replay to boot...drum corps doesn't!

 

humans in any endeavour are not perfect. that doesn't mean it isn't fair. and the mythical every judge must think the same way and see exactly the same things isn't realistic. you're talking a live performance with up to 165 people involved all moving all over the place at varying speeds. plus you have a judging panel split between field and box. each with their own specific sheet and criteria. 

 

also....not sure if it has come up yet, but the judges can also go back and adjust numbers if need be. say you give the Privateer regiment a 88/85, and the Carolina  Cadets come out and throw down...90/89. But wait....the cavalier devils come out and yikes.....their books is better than the cadets, but the performance isn't. so you decide to adjust Carolina to 89/88, then give the devs 90 in book but the performance is 87. boom then you have established the box criteria in each sub box to get the total number that is to be reflected.

 

this back to 87 that so many people still gripe about....cadets got a 10/10 with a group to go. only thing that could ave been done if BD were better is to tie them in each box. Now, you could adjust to get it right

Baseball is experimenting with electronic strike zones.

Football clarifies language about penalties like holding and PI almost every year in order to have the calls be more consistent. 

Professional sports have to be beyond reproach, especially since gambling is so heavily involved these days. Even so, if certain NBA refs are on the game, I know the Heat have a worse chance to win. Same thing happens in Drum Corps, when certain judges are on certain captions on finals night, you know BD is getting a 20 no matter what. 

The fact that you can go back and adjust numbers is one of the very things I am complaining about. It tells me that the number is only relative to the other performers and that its not a direct reflection of what is in front of the judge. 

[ContraFart]

9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

no but.....BD was 3rd in one sub box...everything else was 1 or 2. Crown was 1 or 2 in brass and MA....but they even had sub boxs sitting as low as 6th or 7th on other sheets. when you add the numbers up and do the averages etc...that creates a gap in total score. the percussion score really helps SCV, because most others boxes fell between 3rd and 5th. Bloo had a bunch of 1'2 and 2's...but also a lot of 3's. even a 4 in guard. imagine that 4 was a 3....Bloo probably wins the show

How much closer could those scores have been if a judge was not forced to have ordinals? How far was Bluecoats 4th in guard from 1st? It had to be at least .3 since they cannot tie. What if the difference between 1st and 4th was .2 or .1 and they just could not give that score due to numbers management? 

My argument all along is that the top 3 or 4 are closer than the scores appear.  

Edited June 29, 2023 by ContraFart

[ContraFart]

35 minutes ago, TheOneWhoKnows said:

 

Perfect preseason example I can give of a changing comp score. I've been watching Cadets spring training practically everyday. Their first ballad is absolutely wonderful, but overtime as they kept getting cleaner and cleaner and playing together, all these nuances and moving brass lines started to come through in the ballad and they are incredible. That is just a small example of how a comp score changes. Before you couldn't hear the moving lines and gradually they started to come through and add to the complexity and effectiveness of the ballad. 

At what point in the season does readability become locked in? I can see your argument when it comes to early season, but it makes less sense between Quarterfinals and Finals, especially for captions like brass and percussion.

[TheOneWhoKnows]

1 minute ago, ContraFart said:

At what point in the season does readability become locked in? I can see your argument when it comes to early season, but it makes less sense between Quarterfinals and Finals, especially for captions like brass and percussion.

I don't think there can be a locked in point unless the corps isn't improving. Which I have had in the marching band world where a group peaks and stagnation occurs. As things get cleaner and you no longer have to guess what's happening as an adjudicator, you start seeing other things that would add to comp score. 

[fsthnds]

11 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

it's not just numbers management. it's why the numbers are as they are and what needs to happen to have those numbers given out. See any 9's tonight? hell no. and i am sure the commentary given reflects how the judge landed at the number given. 

it's rare because that in essence means they performed what they were given so well that they could have tried more. 

 

why do comp scres change? as things get cleaner, the judge can see more inner details to raise the number and be rewarded. you're able to get those finer details....say a leg turn and hey the ankle does too! or holy cow listen to the inner phrase dynamic shifting between the voices! first read you'll never get those details.

 

slotting accusations have always happened and will, just as you see biased officiating claims in every sport known to man

A little surprised that a couple of judges last night had high 7's in some subcaptions