Murfreesboro

[Tsar Nikk]

Heh, I was there too, and I remember being shocked that the two-year undefeated run had come to an end.  Especially since the scores the night before didn't really seem to indicate a switch was coming.  Then last year, Indy again played a critical role in the standings.  Blue Devils won (by only a tenth I believe), and with the way the season had been going you absolutely knew that Cavaliers were going to catch them in Denver.  The writing was on the wall.  This year, you have to think Murfreesboro is sending the same kind of message, that Cadets will catch Cavaliers.

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You almost hate to see it happen this way, because it gives the conspiracy theory buffs too much stuff to munch on, considering how "scripted" some seasons seem to be.

For the folks who are slamming on Jeff Mitchell. This guy is a class act, and one of the few judges who isn't afraid to call the scores as they see (or in this case, hear) them.

Honestly, I have to make a mental note to myself never to criticize judges again, because they have one of the worst jobs out there. No matter what they do, they offend/disenfranchise some segment of the population, to the point where some of our less mature posters (i.e., spoiled rotten kids who are growing up today with instant gratification) call them vile names and issue (quasi) death threats.

And in all truth, these guys and gals are out there seeing and hearing things from their perspective, trying to be unbiased...which is something that almost no one hear can claim. I can try to be unbiased all I want, but the fact is, I'm always going to root harder for Regiment, G is always going to root harder for Devils, etc.

Case in point....I always used to slam on Gary Czapinski's judging of Regiment's visual...when deep down inside I knew they weren't up to their old previous standards. I harbored the feeling that this guy maybe had it in for Regiment. But here he is, not giving them the top scores, but apparently rewarding them based on how they are actually doing....who woulda thunk it, what a concept!

I guess as I get older and more cynical, I start to see things differently...what's easier to believe...that there is a DCI-wide conspiracy against some corps to prop up the "Big Three," or that everyone really tries their hardest to judge corps correctly, knowing full well how no matter what they do, some will hate them for calling it as they see it?

From 1998 to 2004, the "top 4" were really that far ahead of everyone else. Now it looks as if it is starting to change. I think it's good for the activity. I also agree with "decompressed:" There are precious few brass judges left, and just like we have seen the encroachment of guard people in all areas of visual, we are starting to see more percussion people in all areas of music. There needs to be a better balance (and if you're going to have two judges for percussion, for crying out loud, have two judges for brass too, sheesh!)

These obnoxious, arrogant opinions have been brought to you by the letter N. :P

[George]

a lot of very good points in one post Nikk - I think I like the "older and more cynical" version of you :)

[George]

This doesn't happen very often but I happen to agree with G.  Jeff Mitchell is one of the best in the business.  He's one of the ones who isn't afraid to call it like he sees it... despite what the armchair referees like us might think or like to see...

Stef

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Jeff Mitchell is one of the best in the business - he's not afraid to call it as he sees it - and he's a pro - period. :)

[thx3838]

Holy Name! Cadets really edging up on Cavies and seperating themselves from the pack. That's a small spread if I've ever seen one. I hope they can keep cleaning and keep picking up momentum. I really want to see them win this year.

Wow. A three point spread between Cadets and Devils. That is tremendous. I wouldn't say a fight at *the* top, but it looks like a fight between 3-6 rather than 4-6 now.

This is the point where I usually get concerned about Madison. They tend to lose steam at the end, while PR usually picks it up. I think the Bluecoats maybe in a bit of a stalemate. I have a feeling they're having a hard time getting it clean enough...still time, though. Although, to be honest, I don't see them catching PR. Madison....*maybe*, if Madison has peaked early....they tend to do that.

Also, what the #### is up with Crown's brass score? 16.4? No way.

....and get it to my Crown Guard ladies and gents. 18.1 !

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wow the top four colorguards are really seperated from the pack, fith place was a full half a point down to crown, and crown was third in composition and only one tenth down to cavaliers in comp...holy cow...they have two weeks to clean it up... and keep pushing passed the blue devils!! this is a huge year for crown and there colorguard

[gdisney]

...Madison's ending doesn't work.....

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They just changed the ending, right? Do you think it needs more time to settle in so the performers can do it justice, or is it just not a very good design?

[strutta]

I'd like to know how Bluecoats go from a less than 2 point lead over Boston to almost a 4 point lead, in three days???

Was Boston off? Were Bluecoats on? Is this a necessary hiccup in the traditional slotting process? Is it a start time of perfromance issue (Boston on 1st, Blue on after intermission, 4th from the end)?

Inquiring minds...

Edited July 30, 2005 by strutta

[longruns]

And in all truth, these guys and gals are out there seeing and hearing things from their perspective, trying to be unbiased...which is something that almost no one hear can claim. I can try to be unbiased all I want, but the fact is, I'm always going to root harder for Regiment, G is always going to root harder for Devils, etc.

I agree Nick with your above statement. I think the issue that everyone has with judging is the grave inconsintencies from judge to judge. A few nights ago Crown received a 17.7 in brass and beat devils with Ken Turner judging, who by the way is the chief brass judge. Not even a week later Jeff Mitchell has Crown at a 16.4. If brass judges are truly basing their numbers off performance and the Box 1-5 concept there is no way this should happen. I"m not saying Ken Turner got it right and Jeff screwed up... I"m just saying that there is no way that Crown can be top box 4/low box 5 and then be low box 4 a few days later. I just think that as you mention there are biases and too many preconceived notions about a group and where they should be placed.

[Cop]

Oh yeah, sure because the Blue Devils are just going to roll over and die right ??

~G~

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No, cuz BC has a much better show!

[xrifle]

They just changed the ending, right?  Do you think it needs more time to settle in so the performers can do it justice, or is it just not a very good design?

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I think that the ending is abrupt in its subtlety. It doesn't give the audience a chance to get there. If that makes any sense. This was first time I saw the show. Had nothing to compare it to and I thought it ended with the loud push, and then it actually ends with this soft moment that I do not think they transition well into either musically or visually. IMO it is a design issue. However, I personally like endings that you can get revved up about. Maybe that is old school but most of the corps last night seemed to adopt that strategy.

[Tsar Nikk]

And in all truth, these guys and gals are out there seeing and hearing things from their perspective, trying to be unbiased...which is something that almost no one hear can claim.  I can try to be unbiased all I want, but the fact is, I'm always going to root harder for Regiment, G is always going to root harder for Devils, etc.

I agree Nick with your above statement. I think the issue that everyone has with judging is the grave inconsintencies from judge to judge.  A few nights ago Crown received a 17.7 in brass and beat devils with Ken Turner judging, who by the way is the chief brass judge. Not even a week later Jeff Mitchell has Crown at a 16.4.  If brass judges are truly basing their numbers off performance and the Box 1-5 concept there is no way this should happen. I"m not saying Ken Turner got it right and Jeff screwed up... I"m just saying that there is no way that Crown can be top box 4/low box 5 and then be low box 4 a few days later. I just think that as you mention there are biases and too many preconceived notions about a group and where they should be placed.

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But then you are not taking into account night to night inconsistencies. I don't for ONE MINUTE buy that corps simply get better and better and better and don't have "off" nights. I mean, they could have had a great show the night they received that 17.7, then had a really lousy show the night they got a 16.4.

This "box 5," "box 4" bullpoopie....does it really take into account corps having FANTASTIC shows or LOUSY shows from night to night? I am not so sure it does.

While I do think the judges do a great job with what they are given, I think it is the system itself that needs MAJOR tweaking. Why the heck do there need to be two percussion judges when there is only one brass judge? Why is "General" effect actually broken down into two SPECIFIC captions? Why is the caption with the MOST subjectivity allowed the most points?

I'd love to see a system that rewarded as such:

General or Overall Effect: 20 points

Visual: 20 points

Music: 20 points

Brass: 10 points

Percussion: 10 points

M&M: 10 points

Guard: 10 points

Seven judges, saving DCI some money by using one fewer judge, and not unduly overemphasizing one caption by using two judges, even if they do an average.

Frankly, everytime that percussion scores are a point apart between the two judges, DCI is doing itself a disservice, highlighting one of its built-in problems: Judges are not all similar, and see things differently.