Bb horns vs G Bugles. ANOTHER angle to the subject

[MN DCI Fan]

Wierdest reason I saw was the person who said he/she "lost their ear" playing a G horn over the summer and it took a month or so to get it back. 

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B)

[drumcat]

Part of this argument was to expand the musical background of brass players. I think it can be said that for the most part, G bugles were of questionable quality. It's not hard to get a Bb trumpet - go to a band store. Thus competition allows for better manufacturing, etc. Additionally, it has allowed for sponsorship. There's a reason that some drumlines play on those "awesome" Dynasty drums...

Anyhow, it's a well thought argument, but I don't think it's a disservice to the members. Noble thought, but it's a practical stretch, IMO.

[drumcat]

You know what drives me crazy about that? They say they DB tested the Bb horns against the G bugles and it came out the same. Well of course!!!!!!! DUH!!!! But any sound engineer will tell you that the DB level has to always be considered in light of the acoustics. The fact is, the tubing of the G bugles are different than that of a Bb horn. And thus, the resonance is different also. The resonance is what gives a corps it's raw power. Not just the DB level in and of itself. Again though, we don't THINK about things like that. Again, I'm not knocking the use of Bb horns. Really I'm not. I have no problem with it. What I have a problem with is limiting ourselves to ONLY the use of Bb horns. THAT is what the mistake is.

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FYI; there's no rule against G. There is no key restriction. What's illegal are slide instruments and souzaphones.

Note how all the corps quickly switched. It wasn't for a competitive advantage; you're saying that you can part hair more with G's. That's not correct. Your inherent belief might be that they are louder, and in fact, corps of yore may have indeed been louder. I think you're confusing the controlled playing required to get numbers these days with G vs. Bb.

There are some arguments for Bb, and for G. Both legit. But in the "market economy" of the corps, they all felt that it was worth changing, spending millions of dollars collectively on it. No one said they had to; they could use any horn they chose. And yet, Bb they went.

[SkyRyder_FMM]

While I do not disagree that the older G bulge lines were more powerful than the current lines, one very important fact that seems to be overlooked in this debate is many (not all) of the "powerful" lines being referenced are not only G bugle lines, they are two value g bugle lines.

Personally, I noticed a huge different between my 2 valve drum corps mellophone, and 3 valve F melly in marching band. The 3 valve instrument took more air to produce less sound. If you don't think this makes a difference, check out the volume the smaller Marines line gets from their 2 valve G bugles. Yes, playing in tune and together create more volume, but given their numbers, they put out some serious volume compared to the 3 valve Bb lines.

[abgiles]

thank you for such a well reasoned and thoughtful argument. although it won't convince everyone (no argument can ever do that), you made your point clearly and without attacking anyone, and you made some great points. i do love the idea of a hornline switching horns mid-show. i think people would go absolutely ape#### over that!

Hold your flames! This is not intended to be what you think (i.e. a debate on why we think or don't think a horn makes "drum corps what it is"). That IS a worn out debate and one that does not need to be re-hashed any further . . . . ETC

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[bawker]

FYI; there's no rule against G.  There is no key restriction.  What's illegal are slide instruments and souzaphones.

Note how all the corps quickly switched.  It wasn't for a competitive advantage; you're saying that you can part hair more with G's.  That's not correct.  Your inherent belief might be that they are louder, and in fact, corps of yore may have indeed been louder.  I think you're confusing the controlled playing required to get numbers these days with G vs. Bb.

There are some arguments for Bb, and for G.  Both legit.  But in the "market economy" of the corps, they all felt that it was worth changing, spending millions of dollars collectively on it.  No one said they had to; they could use any horn they chose.  And yet, Bb they went.

Great, great points.

I understand completely how the "sound" that's rewarded has changed. Again, the "music education" vibe has taken away from some of the raw, unbridled power of the modern horn line. Is it a bad thing? Nah, not so much, although I wish there was some allowance for the "edgey" sound of the past.

I miss the top-heavy "G" line sound of the Madison Scouts and Blue Devils, even if they did splatter a few tomatoes every once in a while...that was part of the passion of it. :)

However, when a line is allowed to let loose... like Phantom... when they crank it on the Bb's, they're still just as loud as G.

[torn8o]

Part of this argument was to expand the musical background of brass players.  I think it can be said that for the most part, G bugles were of questionable quality.

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Not true. Zig made some fantastic G bugles modeled after the Benge concept of trumpet and brass manufacturing. In fact, Zig was the brains of the Benge line wich today remains as one of the most sought after horns...that is...if you buy one that was made in the Kanstul days on back.

[apoch003]

King, Dynasty, Zig, Benge, Olds all made good quality G bugles. Not fair to state about quality of manufacture.

[torn8o]

you're saying that you can part hair more with G's.  That's not correct.  Your inherent belief might be that they are louder, and in fact, corps of yore may have indeed been louder.  I think you're confusing the controlled playing required to get numbers these days with G vs. Bb.

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Again, may I refer you back to the post you just responded to. You ARE correct in the statement that the horn does not add volume...that is if you are simply talking DB levels. However, it is also a FACT that "acoustics change resonance" which can be the difference in how far that DB level is carried. As I mentioned, any professional sound man will tell you that- which is why if you tour with a professional road band as I do, the standard thought is that you should always play to the room regardless of what the sound guy is registering on the DB meter. I have found myself in many venues where we are pumping over 100 DBs and due to the room being dead (not even necessarily the size of the room) that sound does not carry as far and gets absorbed to a different spot, goes up into the ceiling etc. Then on the flip side, I have played in venues where the DB meter is hardly dialing at 90 and we have to turn down and hold back or people in our audience will have damaged ears. It's all about the acoustics.

Having said that, the G Bugles have different acoustics than the Bb horns. I know this for a fact because I am staring at both a Bb trumpet and a G bugle as I speak and the bell flare all the way to the end of the bell are very notably wider on the bugle than on my trumpet. While that type of acoustic difference will not necessarily make the difference in DBs, it will make the difference in where and how far the sound is carried. Thus, it is within reason to believe that if you stood on top of a press box while a corps playes on G bugles- then had the very same corps play on Bbs---you might get the same DB level but the resonance of the sound will make the volume more intense. This is fact.

Oh, one last thing. The guy who also said the 2 valved bugles were louder than the 3 valve- you are correct. Reason for that? Less tubing for the air to go through. In this case, even the DB level can be greater.

Edited August 19, 2005 by torn8o

[BD2Rings]

I could have sworn that the instrument manufacturers played a big part of the switch. The number of corps were greatly decreasing, therefore the number of G instuments in demand were also decreasing. It became less viable for the manufacturers to create these G wonders and there was a push by said manufacturers to switch to Bb.

Now have I missed the boad here completely? It seems we have a classic case of bait and switch here.