If it was said once it needs to be said again

[liebot]

Oh, there have been plenty of similar posts from Garfield fans about Garfield (especially this year) and BD fans about BD. You just obviously disagree with these fans which is fine. It's your right. But, please don't make this out to be just a "Cavalier" thing.

Besides, there has been a lot of Cavalier bashing out there through recent years (many want to knock the mighty off the hill) so that only leads to more postings defending our position. Once the bashing goes away (hopefully never 'cause that means we are still winning) then the posts you mention will go away also.

Soon there will be plenty of Cadet bashing because many feel BD, Cavaliers and Cadets "win too much". You take the good with the bad when you win.

i agree with that.

BD has consistently entertained me more than other corps (maybe with the exception of scouts during the mid-90s). these are shows that i watch over and over again, because they interest me most.

still, that doesn't mean that i'm going to unequivocally state that no corps has ever come to close to them. i love other shows as well, and i think that some are just as (if not more) brilliant than those BD shows that i love so much. i just find it hard to believe that a corps is that much further beyond everyone else (especially when they came in second once in that time-span and tied for first another time.

[JayM]

Very nice effect indeed........but nothing unusual........The Garfield Cadets back in the mid to late 80's was always known to hold out a gorgeous brass-only chord in their ballads....which always brought a great amount of effect....the echo of sound was amazing....

Your response to his statement leads me to believe you really don't know what he was getting at here. Garfield may have held out an a capella chord, but that's not the point.

I like the fact the Cavaliers brass choir produces a rich, clean balance and tone.......

What I don't like is a sterile approach.......you have to let it hang out there just a little.....that is what drum corps (And marching music) is all about....feeding the crowd and then letting the crowd feed the corps.

We obviously have differing opinions.......

A lot of people think this way, as I understand. It's the same reason people like to watch car wrecks, watch fights, etc. Just don't go complaining when a corps that plays correctly beats a corps that "lets it all hang out".

Concepts are no where as important to me as a great tune being arranged and played in a exciting way.....

And that's where we differ on what music is supposed to be.

Correct playing and exciting playing are not mutually exclusive, as most corps in this day and age would you lead you to believe.

[liebot]

i'm trying hard to find any grounds to compare a car accident to a corps playing with some emotion or excitement... not exactly the most apt metaphor.

and i don't see why playing correctly and playing with emotion have to be mutually exclusive either. i just don't get the excitement from cavies' brass sound in 02 -- i think all of their shows from 00-05 were more exciting/interesting from a brass perspective than 02. to use the other poster's words, it just seemed sterile. i don't know.

[howl711]

Shows Better Designed than Cavaliers 2002:

SCV '00

Cavies '00

Star '91

Star '93

BD '95

Cadets '98

Cadets '97

[Geneva]

'83 Cadets

There is nothing like the first time. No show since has left me stunned and amazed by what I was seeing. In some way every show that has been done since then was a build on the ideas they put on the field first.

I fully recognize the excellence and originality that went into Frameworks but I don't see it as innovative.

The Cadet's show made a revolutionary leap that forever changed the activity. If you saw that show live you knew instantly that everything had just changed and there would be no going back.

'84 and '87 were awesome shows but they were a refinement of the original idea.

I agree that '83 Cadets were landmark innovators and a lot of what has happened since flows from this. It was the first time I ever recall that a drum line was integrated into the drill patterns. After seeing it done, it seemed like such a simple and obvious idea, but at the time it was revolutionary...and the speed of the drill! Certainly things have never been the same since.

Now on a different level I feel that 2002 Cavies "Frameworks" show was landmark, also. I feel it was the best TOTAL integration of music and visual ever. This is why the music doesn't stand on its own. It is truely part of the drill, a musical performance which is unique to drum corps!

[jwillis35]

Again, it is always difficult to claim one show best of all time. Too many corps have had unreal shows, and we must define exactly what we mean by best of all time, or most entertaining of all time, or best performed.

The original posters' choice of 2002 Cavaliers is certainly not a bad choice. What a first rate visual program, but for me the musical book lacked emotion and drive. Very well played and marched.

For sheer emotion I would go with either Garfield 1987 or Phantom 2003. Both offer different kinds of goose bumps and passion, but boy do both have it.

But we could also look at BD 1986. Absolute raw power with a level of performance and aggressive marching that is rarely rivaled.

Perhaps the best overall show I have every seen, and this one didn't win, was Santa Clara Vanguard 1988. For overall show design, musical book, percussion excellence, and power and passion out the wazoo, this is certainly one of the great all time shows.

For absolute perfection in performance and nuance, I think it is safe to look at Star of Indiana 1993 and Cadets 2005.

[TommySopranoContra]

Again, it is always difficult to claim one show best of all time. Too many corps have had unreal shows, and we must define exactly what we mean by best of all time, or most entertaining of all time, or best performed.

The original posters' choice of 2002 Cavaliers is certainly not a bad choice. What a first rate visual program, but for me the musical book lacked emotion and drive. Very well played and marched.

For sheer emotion I would go with either Garfield 1987 or Phantom 2003. Both offer different kinds of goose bumps and passion, but boy do both have it.

For absolute perfection in performance and nuance, I think it is safe to look at Star of Indiana 1993 and Cadets 2005.

You my good sir, win this topic! :)

I think I saw 2002 Cavaliers 4 or 5 times including finals night

In my opinion, the show seemed just "cool" to me at first, but as I saw other corps, I began to dislike it more and more every time. I will acknowledge that Frameworks was very clean (got crushed in percussion but other than that) however I lacked to arrive me at some kind of feeling of "WOW I LOVED THAT SHOW".

I have to say that my biggest dislike of the show was the fact that it wasn't very upbeat even though some parts were fast, and it just completely failed to make me emotionally attached to the music. It just seemed very "safe" to me. Typically a show that I love, I could listen to forever and note specific chords, runs, phrases or what have you that I would rile with goosebumps. Frameworks didn't do that for me. The Cadets' Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy had my fingers snapping and Phantom Regiment enchanted me with their sumptuous melodies and harmonies, but Frameworks musically was just "so what?".

Having said that, I will admit that it is one of the best shows visually. There are some great designs to their drill that other corps don't and didn't have.

In sum, a great show to me will have touched me visually, musically, and emotionally. Frameworks is a little odd because it definitely kept me staring, but I mind as well turn off the music and play something another corps would have played because honestly everytime I see it on DVD, I dislike it more and more.

-----------

NOW The Cadets 2005 is now probably my favorite show ever. Not only does this show incorporate, excellent technical execution, was very experimental and risk-taking in design (In my opinion) BUT made my hair stand with the music and visuals. It's like catnip for me, every time I watch it I love it more and more.

[Triple Forte]

Your response to his statement leads me to believe you really don't know what he was getting at here. Garfield may have held out an a capella chord, but that's not the point.

ok......what exactly is FH4lifes' point ??

FH4life stated "cavaliers' brass doesn't belong to this planet. that brass-only fermato... priceless"

A lot of people think this way, as I understand. It's the same reason people like to watch car wrecks, watch fights, etc. Just don't go complaining when a corps that plays correctly beats a corps that "lets it all hang out".

No where have I complained that corps A is better than corps B and that the Cavaliers did not deserve to win with the music they play or anything like that......

FH4life stated that "I cant understand how people find the music from the 2002 Cavies boring"

I simply responded with my thoughts on why I thought that most of the 2002 Cavies music is boring.......

Triple Forte

[TommySopranoContra]

I have talked to alot of people in this new college/highschool that i'm going to and have heard from kids around my age (16-18) that have no exposure to drum corps besides PBS and ESPN2. They have said that the Cavaliers are the "cleanest" (coolest) and most "hard-co'" and can rarely identify any of the other corps. There's something appealing to drum corps noobs about raw athleticism and coolocity and the Cavaliers definitely hit that target with 2002. I look at all the comments about there being no "emotion" in the corps. Do you honestly think that after spending that much time with a group of people there would be no emotion whatsoever? Did you ever think that maybe the plan was to look professional and disciplined instead of a partaking in a free spirited lovefest? The "hook" that some people have to corps that they have stuck with for a while surely cannot deny the immense popularity of the Frameworks and the impact it has made on modern drum corps and marching band. The vast number of marching bands that imitated Fight Club the years following is clear cut evidence of how it has affected the youth band scene. I thank the people who, although still having their own personal preferences, have given the Cavaliers the respect they have continued to deserve. To those that simply knock it, I suggest you get out of the rock you've been under and appreciate what the corps has done to raise the bar for this activity.

I highly agree with you. A lot of my friends that I introduce (in my age range 16-18) to Drum Corps: all they see is Cavaliers and don't know of any corps. But as time goes by almost all of them depart from that because I think part of it is because they realize that there are other shows out there. Being a DCI fan since I was like 7 in 1996's finals, I have to admit 1997 Firebird was my favorite Cavalier show of all time, after that I've really disliked all their shows. I mean there were some seconds, where I can say that's cool, but I can't remember anything from 1998-2005 that gave me goosebumps.

Note: I think SCV 99 and SCV 04 are the most imitated shows out there by marching bands in complementary with your comment on the imitation of the fight club. And with this marching band season, I cannot tell you how many bands are putting drumscats in (reference to Cadets), and amps have been in marching bands for quite a while. Some band I saw was playing religious catholic style music like Carmina Burana and instead a door they had a confessional in the middle of the field.

Edited October 2, 2005 by TommySopranoContra

[mobrien]

i'll choose to disagree. if a show isn't exciting or emotionally engaging, how can it be "the best designed show of all time"?

For a show that wasn't engaging, the crowd sure was responding while they were performing it.

Best? I dunno - the 74 Muchachos are still my favorite, but it may be the best integrated (the musical and visual being in near perfect accord). I thought it was brilliant start to finish, and did a great job of satisfying the needs of the fans while striving to have the 'content' level necessary to max out the sheets.

No props, no set pieces, no costumes or 'acting' - just a very simple concept, good writing, and dynamite execution.

Edited October 2, 2005 by mobrien