Santa Cavaliers Cadets

[bawker]

I even will say that the top writers today get worse every year. Maybe it's the ego of they can play this so I will write it idea. Take a lesson from Hannum at Star in 93. Those were some of the best players ever to march they could of played anything. But Thom wrote music and technique with quality of sound and a lot of the guys arranging today that are "TOP" arrangers used to write music and some even taught technique.

More than once, after watching this show with other people over the course of the summer in 1993, they asked..."Where's the drum feature?" Heh.

I, of course, don't know much at all about marching percussion, but it does seem from my layman viewpoint like a musical, intergrated approach to the battery is sometimes a tricky art. Musically voicing the parts into a show to not only provide support for the brass book, but also stand up on its own is a tall order.

That does bring up an interesting point. We've seen visual meet musical now in design evolution...some would say exceed in the Cavaliers case of the past few years...we've obviously seen horn charts go through the roof as far as musicality and techinique, and even the guard caption has evolved, especially once the caption started counting towards total score....so:

Could there be some sort of reimagining of the percussion section as it intergrates as whole into the program on the horizon? Do we need to see more emphasis on being "musical", i.e. dynamic contrast, etc...? Or is there already?

Not that there hasn't been amazing stuff the past few years to me, but, I suppose as someone not really able to get all of the total ins and outs of percussion writing...is there room for such a thing? Or even a need?

...my next topic "Is there to many degree's in drum corps" or "is education taking the edge off of drum corps"

Heh. Sounds like fun. Welcome to DCP.

[drumcat]

Drum Corps percussion is getting dumbed down more and more every year. Is it really in the best interests of the lower level programs to have the higher-level guys writing and consulting them. There are plenty of good people out there that could be great Caption Heads. But the drum corps are more concerned with the big name than having there own identity. Devin

OK, I'm going to say that I'm pretty astonished by this. Starting with the premise here that percussion is getting "dumbed down". I think that I can say with a lot of confidence that you aren't believable. Go back those twenty years, and listen to corps that you don't think are innovators. Gauge their complexity versus contemporary corps, and you'll find that corps twenty years ago were less musical, and less complex *in general*. The activity has evolved and become much more cerebral. It's not ramma-jamma don't care about musicality parts.

But what I find more than just wrong; what I actually found offensive even, is that you somehow fault corps for trying to improve. Instead of going after a known quantity that has respectability within the community, you're suggesting that corps in the lower ranks should try to cultivate their own talent on staff. That's so head-in-the-sand that it's pretty obvious that you don't have a vested interest in the experience of marching members. If you did, you might find that it is valuable - even in a limited capacity - to have a program validated by the experience of a quality instructor. If your kids get to play a book by a big name, then the kids and staff have the confidence to know that they are going to have a quality program if executed. If anything, better staff members and writers don't invoke a personal taste, but rather mold the drum book around the year's program specifically.

The idea of homogenous drumlines has some validity insofar as judging criteria and scoring has become clearer in the percussion category as any; in fact there is more parity in the percussion category than any, in my opinion. (Not to be confused with the volatility of CG scores; just saying that if there's a category where one team can beat another on a given night, it's drums.)

But to me, the clearest problem with your argument is that you believe that an instructor going to a different corps is somehow distasteful because that person is going to stay that person, and put their personal signature on a show. That's like saying that you have to lose your personality and style if you change jobs. This, all for the sake of perpetuating style? To call out instructors specifically for making a professional decision is not only wrong, it's also not your business. I'd suggest quitting while you're behind. If you want a discussion about how drumming has evolved into a more "vanilla" process, I think you'll find an audience. If you want to bag on instructors and corps for "selling out", and "giving in to the man", expect a very flammable response. <**>

[thehandsofdevin]

First off I would like to say it is good to be having a real discussion on here. I look through the posts here all the time and can never find anything worth posting about. So lets keep this good discussion going as I will bring up more topics in days to come that will be interesting to talk about.

So back to this topic now: When I think about drumlines I don’t only think about music I think about technique and sound production (Quality of sound). Let’s think about this: What if Cavaliers played cadets book using their technique? It wouldn’t be the same. I could make lots of examples but lets move on to the point.

I read a post somewhere about Bluestars saying it was keeping most of the percussion staff but bringing a top person in to Consult/Write. Let think about this: They bring in a big name to write he is only going to be there every now and then if any. None of these instructors marched under him or have played his technique or parts before. Now I see one of 2 things happening.

1. Consultant comes in every now and then and makes constant technique changes and leaves the staff to try to make sense of it when he is gone.

2. He lets the staff do what they do and the writing and technique systems don’t match making a less than decent product.

This is the main reason most programs fail anyways I think. They are never given enough time to have continuity of staff. Or are forced into retaining people they don’t want to work with because people are sometimes too nice. I am guessing Cassella was pushed hard to keep the Cavalier people on board thats just my opinion. We will have to see how long that lasts, I am willing to bet no more than 1 season if that. What if Cassella was hired and he had to retain the whole staff and bring nobody of his own in? It would have been what I am talking about here.

Lets keep it going,

Devin

[thehandsofdevin]

But to me, the clearest problem with your argument is that you believe that an instructor going to a different corps is somehow distasteful because that person is going to stay that person, and put their personal signature on a show. That's like saying that you have to lose your personality and style if you change jobs. This, all for the sake of perpetuating style?

Maybe I didn't explain it because that is not all there is to it. I don't think people like Kuhn and Gusseck should just fade away after building an identity. But I do think that if they are going to do it don't do it half ###. I am glad that Cassella stayed out of the activity last year and is now coming in full force not just writing a book for so and so corps. If you want to consult help a unknown develop their own style of writing if you want to write do it full on in a caption head position with your staff and be on the road or get out of drum corps. We need new talent not a bunch of ex caption heads writing and consulting and not in the trenches with the people trying to make it happen. It is not good for the activity we need our writers on the road and highly involved.

Well let’s just start having all the top drum corps guys write all the high school percussion books out there. Because that will make everyone in the world better, right?

One last thing I want arguments on specific instances where this has worked well and/or for a long period of time say 3 years.

Lets have some fun,

Devin

[Blue Devil Legend]

IMO, truly I'm a little mystified by this topic. Things have ALWAYS been the same in regards to this, but what would I know?

[I Like Drum Corps]

Another view on this topic, and not necessarily related exclusively to percussion. Something we see pretty often is "lower-tier" Div I corps hiring big names to add to their staff lists. Things like Gaines writing Spirit's drill, Donny Van Doren heading up the Blue Stars' brass program (what exactly is his job there anyway?), Rennick writing Pioneer's drum book, etc. The thing is, it seems to me, that each of these big name instructors will be devoting the majority of their time to their main program. I really don't think Gaines is going to spend as much time writing Spirit's drill as he will Cavaliers'. For these people, these other drum corps commissions are probably treated a lot like the countless commissions these guys get writing for high schools. It's nice to be able to say that some of these people teach your corps, but maybe it would be a better idea to cultivate talent that will dedicate time to these programs.

[drumcat]

We need new talent not a bunch of ex caption heads writing and consulting and not in the trenches with the people trying to make it happen. It is not good for the activity we need our writers on the road and highly involved.

Well let’s just start having all the top drum corps guys write all the high school percussion books out there. Because that will make everyone in the world better, right?

One last thing I want arguments on specific instances where this has worked well and/or for a long period of time say 3 years.

Maybe reinventing the wheel doesn't look appealing to up-and-coming lines. Maybe learning from experts doesn't seem "right" to you... but it has worked for eons, and not just with teaching corps.

What high school wouldn't want a book done by an expert? Who better?

Worked well for a long time, blah blah... the Blue Knights benefitted under Hardimon from a very long time.

I really think you shouldn't be making assumptions about what is and isn't good for Mr. Casella. Who are you to say something like that? <**>

[randomnoise]

It's nice to be able to say that some of these people teach your corps, but maybe it would be a better idea to cultivate talent that will dedicate time to these programs.

As with any resource, it depends how the resource is directed.

I am a corps director that uses big name junior corps folks to teach my corps and my band. The reason it works is because we work together. We talk on the phone, they come to rehearsal, we circle back and discuss changes, etc.

It seems that there are a number of folks who assume that a known instructor/designer will just "phone it in" to another corps. This is not always the case. Here are two reasons: First, a genius is a genius. The quality of their output is going to be at a higher level than someone with less talent or experience. Second, they have to protect their good name. Wayne Downey is a good example - he works hard to ensure that everything he does is top notch. And there are many more.

Finally, I am all for developing young talent. My head vis guy for the Renegades was the drum major of a High School I taught, and he worked his way up. And he's great at it. Now.

That's the key thought here - it takes time. True genius is rare - most of us have honed our skills over the years. It is unrealistic to expect the leader of a competitive drum corps to take a chance on an unproven entity in a creative position.

But folks do work their way up. That's what I've been trying to do for the last 20-something years.

I don't hire staffers for their name - I hire them for their talent, drive and high standards.

[drumcat]

Are you suggesting that DCI regulate books in such a way that the people writing must only write for one corps? That's a rather unfair expectation of capping a person's ability to earn money at a profession...

[MUSICandCHARACTER]

.... It's nice to be able to say that some of these people teach your corps, but maybe it would be a better idea to cultivate talent that will dedicate time to these programs.

I have to say I agree with this statement a lot. Winning breeds winning. But I love to see good people continue to grow. I think it is much more important to keep a good staff intact then to bring in big names. Unfortunately, smaller corps cannot pay to keep good staff, and they can move "up" to a bigger/better corps.

The experienced kids do the same.

Unlike competitive professional sports, long-term contracts are not usually the thing in drum corps. It would be hard, for example, to find a great percussion caption head and sign him/her to a five year commitment. Therefore they tend to move up to better jobs if they can. And if you write for a Div I corps, especially a top Div I corps, you can make a living writing for high schools, and other corps.

I saw 17 bands on Saturday at a contest and I heard 4 Key Poulan arrangements.

I would love to see talent cultivated. But that takes patience and money -- and many corps don't have much of either. And if someone found someone to write some great drill and someone else to write the percussion book and the staff was great and they win Div II or III -- even though that corps gave them a chance to show their stuff they are likely to be gone to a Div I program.

I am not sure what point is trying to be made here. But I agree with "I Like Drum Corps" on this point.

Jim