84BDsop Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 nope. I remember the Dream show in 2000...Spirit and Crown on DCA sheets. both corps knew coming in that it was this way. they treated it as a way to get feedback from new faces, honor a great drum corps tradition, and entertain the fans.in time all DCA corps will be on DCA sheets....the change is coming slowly, but it's coming. til then, it is what it is. after all, MBI got scores on DCI/DCM sheets for years and still came out ok when they came in to DCA The West coasters finally got on DCA sheets last year...although some people had to make sure the judges didn't keep misplacing them befoer we went on! But yeah....the performance aims are a bit different from Div II/III DCI to DCA sheets...I think the average point differential was about 10-15 points or so. It IS rather nicde to get scores that are closer to what you'll get when yo go back east... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Question #1 - What do you make of this? Not surprised that MBI scored highest, if that's what you mean. Question #2 - Is it even fair for these corps to BE on the same sheets like this? Why wouldn't it be? I can see how if corps A devotes all their design and performance efforts toward excelling on DCI sheets, while corps B tailors their efforts toward DCA sheets, the results of their head-to-head matchup will be different depending on which sheets they are judged on. But these corps know in advance if they will be judged on the "other" sheets, and if their score on the "other" sheets matters enough to them, they will make an effort to rack up points under that "other" system. I'm sure corps did this in the past, but now that DCA sheets are being used nationwide, all-age corps will probably focus exclusively on DCA criteria when developing their programs. I suppose what I'm really getting at is - is this system of having the senior corps and junior corps on the same sheets potentially dangerous politically? I started a thread on the DCI section a week or so ago on wanting to see good relationships and back scratching between DCI and DCA. However, I'm sort of taken back after seeing this on the fear that this could be the very type of issue DCI is trying to guard against in not wanting to be to close to the DCA activity. Heh - no. Senior corps have outscored DCI corps before, on both DCI and DCA sheets. No harm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strutta Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 No. Not at all the point of this thread. In fact, those types of questions are exactly what I said I wanted to stay away from on this thread. I don't want this so much to be a "comparison" but rather - an observation that in light of some (like myself) wanting there to be some mutual respect and support between DCI and DCA - are contests like the one above where you have THE APPEARANCE OF DCI and DCA corps competing against one another furthering DCIs excuses to want to keep DCI corps far away from the DCA corps? If so, should shows like the one above be run under a different format? I personally don't know much about DCM. What does seem obvious is that they seem to want to connect the dots between the juniors and seniors which I AM COMPLETELY 100% in favor of. I am one who believes the philosophy that "drum corps is drum corps is drum corps". However, I wonder if DCM and other movements who want to bridge the junior and senior corps gaps could be formatting contests in such a way that would be more politically correct and thus - get more of a head nod from the DCI folks. I'm sure some will say "we don't need or want DCIs head nod". But, that type of attitude probably does more harm than good IMO. sorry about misinterpreting. However in the spirit of your thread, I'd ask where do people think the Reading Buccaneers would have finished last year in DCI Division I? (With all due respect to Div 2 & 3, I believe the Bucs would've killed in that division.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumlaw80 Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 (edited) I was going to write something along the "don't compare apples and oranges" response, but then I saw your comment at the end, regarding the politics of having the two different kinds of corps on the same sheets. This was a very insightful comment. I can tell you that on the West Coast, in my experience, the growing pains between junior corps and the sudden existence of senior corps were not with the upper-tier Division 1 corps. Blue Devils and Vanguard were, and continue to be, more than helpful to the Renegades, for example, in pretty much every way you can imagine ... and hopefully, vice versa. In 2000, the first person to meet with the Renegades outside the organization and try to help us get the corps off the ground was BD Director Dave Gibbs. The new director of SCV, Jeff Pearson, is a former Renegades DM. So, the cooperation and mutual assistance is even getting better these days. Which is cool. The growing pains, and the most resistance in the early days, seemed to me, to come from the Div. 2 and "lower tier" Division 1 corps, who were used to being the "other" big kid on the West Coast block outside of BD and SCV. Until Renegades came along and got good. Then, it got kinda murky exactly who was the other draw for the fans outside of the BD and SCV A corps, and it suddenly became a huge issue that Renegades were going on last at the shows. As recently as three years ago, some drum corps admins were publicly espousing the opinion that senior corps should not exist. Ouch. This has mellowed out in recent years, and -- with the exception of one antagonized senior corps guy -- we have arrived at a state of peaceful coexistence on the West Coast, which is awesome. The different scoring sheets have, IMO, have definitely helped bring about the new change in attitude and coexistence, because there is no longer a direct numerical comparison, aka a "perceived competitive threat." For years, regardless of how good the corps was, the Renegades scored below all junior corps except the Blue Devils C corps ... in horns, drums, guard ... you name it. I think these scores were, consciously or unconsciously, obviously slotted between the different groups, and that is when I stopped reading recaps. There was no point in making a comparison. Now, although the sheets cannot realistically be compared to DCA shows 3,000 miles away, we still have some numerical basis in which to gauge our progress. The show design of the SCV Cadets and Renegades have little to nothing to do with one another. Both are very good ... but one is apples, and one is oranges. And I like oranges. Edited March 5, 2006 by drumlaw80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbionNY Drum Line Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 i very much believe Buccs would have placed top 5 in dci if not higher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumlaw80 Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 (edited) i very much believe Buccs would have placed top 5 in dci if not higher I don't think they would be in the top five under a DCI evaluation, or anywhere close, but not for the reason you might first suspect. It is not an issue of execution, but rather that the Bucs show, IMO, is not designed under the same criteria as the Cavies or Cadets. I don't mean to imply that one is inherently better or worse. Frankly, I would rather watch the Bucs, Cabs or Renegades than most DCI corps. In my opinion, many senior corps are better than your average junior corps. Yeah, you read that correctly. But my perception re: what is good is solely based on impact on the audience, not simply who marches faster or cleaner (unless either of those factors actually impacts the audience at any given time). I look at the 2001 Cadets show, for example, as a brilliant and genius display of innovative precision and musicality. But then the 2001 Renegades went on right after them in Concord, and got a 5-minute standing ovation that was unlike anything I had ever seen at a drum corps show, before or since. So, under my criteria, the Renegades beat the Cadets at that show in 2001 ... and maybe the Bucs would be top 5 at DCI. Go figure. Heh. Edited March 5, 2006 by drumlaw80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torn8o Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 (edited) In 2000, the first person to meet with the Renegades outside the organization and try to help us get the corps off the ground was BD Director Dave Gibbs. I knew there was a reason I liked him. :P Actually, there are many reasons. :) GREAT director and it's great to know that he is supportive of the DCA corps in his area. Edited March 5, 2006 by torn8o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torn8o Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 i very much believe Buccs would have placed top 5 in dci if not higher I don't think they would be in the top five under a DCI evaluation, or anywhere close, but not for the reason you might first suspect. I haven't seen them live yet but have seen video recordings of them - even own one myself (i.e. 04). From the videos that I have seen, I would probably call them somwhere between the 10th-14th place range strictly on the basis of quality. But again, we are comparing apples to oranges and with the DCA show design, they probably would not score where they should. Which again is reason to keep each corps on the sheets their shows are designed for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 unless a DCA corps wrote for DCI sheets, rehearsed all day every day, and basically did everything a junior corps did, you cant compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torn8o Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 unless a DCA corps wrote for DCI sheets, rehearsed all day every day, and basically did everything a junior corps did, you cant compare. Agreed, so back to my original point. DCA and DCI corps should not be judged on the same sheets when at the same competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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