When did junior-senior relationship change?

[BigLou]

Jr. corps have ceased to be a major factor in filling the recruitment needs of senior corps... sadly, pretty much a fact... that occured when junior drum corps to survive became dependent on bandos... which was bound to happen... but the missing factor was "The Drum Corps Family" (I must mention that there has been much more success in the last decade with Jr. alumni doing senior corps in the "growth" areas like Renegades and CorpsVets)

Hey Tom, do you remember when this started to happen. When the kids, in order to be competitive had to 2 "tours". How many corps have we lost due to that and all of them feed into the "all age" (being politely correct) corps. I think it was 1971, The birth of DCI. Hmmm Spend much monies in order to be in the top 25. I would wonder if a corps with the quality of the Blue devils only did local shows how they would be placed at finals.

What do you think about this??

[TomPeashey]

Hi Lou, old friend

yes, DCI was the birth of a new age... but I'm not going to bash DCI - mistakes were made yes, (even Jim Jones was human) but so much was either out of their control or predetermined by the changing times. Let us also not forget that the increased competition of the 1970's was what we (the fans, the management and the performers) demanded happen. We were so starved for the competition that by 1971, the once a year trip to "Nationals" was no longer enough to satisfy our insatiable appetite for competition.

This also coincided with the demise of interest in drum corps within both the Legion and VFW. Drum corps as an activity was a pimple on their butt... and that's exactly how they treated it... everything from rules to who judged to scheduling and championship location were in the hands of people who were arranging a major convention and dealing with enormous world affairs problems and talking to presidents. It became apparent that they made decisions on drum corps matters during the few seconds of break they had (perhaps while sitting on the toilet)

DCA was formed in 1963/64 and succeeded very quickly... it was only natural that the juniors would try it... they did... welcome DCI in 1971. We could describe both DCA and DCI as the unwanted stepchildren of the Legion and VFW. For those young people in the audience, yes, DCA came first and DCI copied DCA. DCA remained in the Northeast and only a weekend activity. DCI had corps coast to coast (and darn strong corps spread across 3000 miles). This immediately led to touring and the "viva la difference" between the two organizations.

So the question you really ask is this... did DCI cause the demise of so many corps?

While the first championship in Denver in the mid 70's was a bad move in my opinion on DCI's part (it was premature, they should have stayed central in the midwest while the corps grew their financial bases) - I blame the management of the corps who felt compelled to somehow get their corps to Denver at the risk of financial insolvancy... The list of corps that failed that fall is quite unbelievable... (I was a founder of 2 of the corps that failed that fall, and close to a third) this was the true break in Old time drum corps vs what was to follow. I recommended to all three corps that they not go. It was too big a financial risk.

But was it really a fault of DCI's? Would they have failed anyway? It is my belief that DCI was simply there to pick up the pieces and take care of the survivors. I believe that everything from the change in the American family make up to the first huge increase in the price of gas to the entrance into the electronic age, giving kids a much more diverse offering to take up their free time and discretionary spending all contributed to the demise of all but the fittest. When insurance costs went from a few hundred dollars to many thousands of dollars a year, when taking school buses through 15 states was no longer acceptable, when drugs became something that invaded society not only in the Bronx or South Los Angeles but every school in the country... ALL contributed...

What I'm really saying here Lou is that I have little patience for those who need a quick direction to place the blame... I lived through it. I performed, taught, led and judged these corps through this period and it simply is so complex that there is no one single answer for what changed our activity or if we could have stopped the changes that occured.

The only regret I have is that the days of picking up a wayward kid of the street and putting a horn in his hand and setting him with goals that will completely change his life direction are gone...

I once knew a kid who was sleeping in all night laudramats and begging or worse for something to eat... I took him out of that laundramat, fed him donuts (and many breakfasts, this is somewhat tongue in cheek as I owned a donut shop at the time, but really did give him free donuts on many mornings for which he continues to thank me for)... encouraged him to a continued drum corps career and saw him completely turn around his life... after all was said and done, he ended up in Rochester, married a color guard girl and quite literally lived happily ever after. He's in St. Joe's Alumni to this day...

With huge tour fee's and so few corps often requiring considerable travel to belong... this type of save the kid on the street situation is no longer happening. That is truly the sadest part of the direction corps has been forced to take. I don't blame anyone for that situation developing. I was there - it was either go in the direction they went or fail...

So if someone needs someone to blame... try Steven Jobs or Bill Gates... believe me, their impact on American Society had more to do with the changes made in drum corps than any decision ever made by Don Pesceone.

[mark riley]

Thanks for that very thoughtful post, Tom.

I would add two other circumstances that changed junior drum corps just before the advent of DCI. One was the Vietnam war. It took literally hundreds of young men out of drum corps uniforms and put them in soldiers' uniforms during the period from '66-'71 at least. The other factor that went on at the same time was the wholesale withdrawal of support from drum corps on the part of the Catholic church. So many great junior corps were sponsored by the church, and the combination of greatly increased costs plus (at least in the NYC area) the notion that corps no longer represented "parish kids" cost many a corps their home. Some, like the IC Reveries morphed into other great corps (27th Lancers). Others even got other parishes to sponsor them (St. Joe's Patron to St. Rita's Brassmen), but in the end, these two situations were two big body blows for the activity BEFORE DCI WAS FORMED.

As you point out, mistakes were made. I still believe to this day that one of them was limiting early membership to only the corps that made finals. I think that created a system (whether purposely or not) where the validity of ideas was measured strictly by whether you were in the top 12.

And yet, all these years later, we still love this thing we call drum corps, no matter how much we complain about it.

And to me, that's a tribute to the kids (and adults) that put it all out there for us each year.

Mark Riley

[Donny Drum Corps]

This is an excellent thread...thanks for starting it Mark. And Tom, your insight and ability to communicate is at an all time high since you moved west. LOL

I too miss the thoughts of the kids gone bad making a turn for the better because of the drum corps experience, and I know who you referred to in your post. I also saw those same corps not make the field in that same time frame after Denver, so I know what you are saying to be true. Blame in on DCI or Denver????? It just was the way things went and the local corps couldn't handle the travel commitmernts necessary to remain competitive nationally.

I sat in the rehearsal in Auburn NY in 1975 with a full corps and couldnt understand why the administration of the Purple Lancers said we were not going to field a corps that upcoming summer. I was astounded. We had 50+ very talented horn players, a full drum line and guard...why wouldnt we want to go out after making DCI finals? The management was not even able to communicate this to the members. DCI had told us at that point that now being finalists we would have to travel much more than ever before. It took years for me to understand the business decisions that had to be made by the managers of that corps. Perhaps they pulled the plug too soon, but managers werent ready for the commitment to DCI. So another corps that really had blossomed into a national contender bites the dust, even before they had the chance to enjoy the national scene as I did with St. Joe's. Many of those kids also followed Corky, but this time to Phoenix, and that is a whole other story.

Now days however there are more DCA corps that DO in fact serve as a training ground for kids to prepare for DCI corps. I think that is great! They are getting good training that helps them to achieve the top DCI corps. That says alot for DCA.

Tom, I just got back from the Lilac Festival parade. There still is a lot of drum corps activity in western NY. And the Gates Chili color guard and band were VERY professional looking and sounding. I saw 4 DCA groups in the parade, and 0 DCI corps. That is why the DCA are attractive to me. They still get out there to the public to enjoy.

Donny

[Jeff Ream]

Hi Lou, old friend

yes, DCI was the birth of a new age... but I'm not going to bash DCI - mistakes were made yes, (even Jim Jones was human) but so much was either out of their control or predetermined by the changing times. Let us also not forget that the increased competition of the 1970's was what we (the fans, the management and the performers) demanded happen. We were so starved for the competition that by 1971, the once a year trip to "Nationals" was no longer enough to satisfy our insatiable appetite for competition.

This also coincided with the demise of interest in drum corps within both the Legion and VFW. Drum corps as an activity was a pimple on their butt... and that's exactly how they treated it... everything from rules to who judged to scheduling and championship location were in the hands of people who were arranging a major convention and dealing with enormous world affairs problems and talking to presidents. It became apparent that they made decisions on drum corps matters during the few seconds of break they had (perhaps while sitting on the toilet)

DCA was formed in 1963/64 and succeeded very quickly... it was only natural that the juniors would try it... they did... welcome DCI in 1971. We could describe both DCA and DCI as the unwanted stepchildren of the Legion and VFW. For those young people in the audience, yes, DCA came first and DCI copied DCA. DCA remained in the Northeast and only a weekend activity. DCI had corps coast to coast (and darn strong corps spread across 3000 miles). This immediately led to touring and the "viva la difference" between the two organizations.

So the question you really ask is this... did DCI cause the demise of so many corps?

While the first championship in Denver in the mid 70's was a bad move in my opinion on DCI's part (it was premature, they should have stayed central in the midwest while the corps grew their financial bases) - I blame the management of the corps who felt compelled to somehow get their corps to Denver at the risk of financial insolvancy... The list of corps that failed that fall is quite unbelievable... (I was a founder of 2 of the corps that failed that fall, and close to a third) this was the true break in Old time drum corps vs what was to follow. I recommended to all three corps that they not go. It was too big a financial risk.

But was it really a fault of DCI's? Would they have failed anyway? It is my belief that DCI was simply there to pick up the pieces and take care of the survivors. I believe that everything from the change in the American family make up to the first huge increase in the price of gas to the entrance into the electronic age, giving kids a much more diverse offering to take up their free time and discretionary spending all contributed to the demise of all but the fittest. When insurance costs went from a few hundred dollars to many thousands of dollars a year, when taking school buses through 15 states was no longer acceptable, when drugs became something that invaded society not only in the Bronx or South Los Angeles but every school in the country... ALL contributed...

What I'm really saying here Lou is that I have little patience for those who need a quick direction to place the blame... I lived through it. I performed, taught, led and judged these corps through this period and it simply is so complex that there is no one single answer for what changed our activity or if we could have stopped the changes that occured.

The only regret I have is that the days of picking up a wayward kid of the street and putting a horn in his hand and setting him with goals that will completely change his life direction are gone...

I once knew a kid who was sleeping in all night laudramats and begging or worse for something to eat... I took him out of that laundramat, fed him donuts (and many breakfasts, this is somewhat tongue in cheek as I owned a donut shop at the time, but really did give him free donuts on many mornings for which he continues to thank me for)... encouraged him to a continued drum corps career and saw him completely turn around his life... after all was said and done, he ended up in Rochester, married a color guard girl and quite literally lived happily ever after. He's in St. Joe's Alumni to this day...

With huge tour fee's and so few corps often requiring considerable travel to belong... this type of save the kid on the street situation is no longer happening. That is truly the sadest part of the direction corps has been forced to take. I don't blame anyone for that situation developing. I was there - it was either go in the direction they went or fail...

So if someone needs someone to blame... try Steven Jobs or Bill Gates... believe me, their impact on American Society had more to do with the changes made in drum corps than any decision ever made by Don Pesceone.

i only disagree in one area....DCi was smart to go to Denver in 77 and 78. in fact, they were stupid for waiting so long to go back.

that could have led to the growth of all age corps out there a lot sooner

[TomPeashey]

Thanks Donnie...

as for the lilac parade... rumor has it my twin grandsons were across from the reviewing stands and on TV all morning... cameraman and director couldn't resist total cuteness...

Jeff, as for Denver, had you been there you could have done a very interesting thing... made a list of all corps that pulled into the parking lot of mile high stadium on school buses... Then figure out how many of those corps did not exist the following year... the answer is ... not quite but almost 100% (and trust me, the number of corps driving to Denver on buses that should have been condemned was high)

I don't have the figures, but from the 60's when we counted drum corps in the thousands to the 70's when we counted drum corps in the hundreds... I'll bet that by the end of 1978, the figure was down to 60 or 70...

[CozyChopsCom]

<snip>

This also coincided with the demise of interest in drum corps within both the Legion and VFW. Drum corps as an activity was a pimple on their butt... and that's exactly how they treated it... everything from rules to who judged to scheduling and championship location were in the hands of people who were arranging a major convention and dealing with enormous world affairs problems and talking to presidents. It became apparent that they made decisions on drum corps matters during the few seconds of break they had (perhaps while sitting on the toilet)

DCA was formed in 1963/64 and succeeded very quickly... it was only natural that the juniors would try it... they did... welcome DCI in 1971. We could describe both DCA and DCI as the unwanted stepchildren of the Legion and VFW. For those young people in the audience, yes, DCA came first and DCI copied DCA. DCA remained in the Northeast and only a weekend activity. DCI had corps coast to coast (and darn strong corps spread across 3000 miles). This immediately led to touring and the "viva la difference" between the two organizations.

<snip>

The only regret I have is that the days of picking up a wayward kid of the street and putting a horn in his hand and setting him with goals that will completely change his life direction are gone...

<snip>

So if someone needs someone to blame... try Steven Jobs or Bill Gates... believe me, their impact on American Society had more to do with the changes made in drum corps than any decision ever made by Don Pesceone.

Tom's, Donny's et al., insightful "I-was-there" explanations should be required reading for any current or wannabe director, all staff, all members, and many fan$. Money is behind most all of my diatribes regarding entertainment, Bb, etc.

The sad fact to me, also, is that we help fewer kids, and we're not helping the ones who truly could use a boost by the ragged suspenders.

Edited May 14, 2006 by CozyChopsCom

[Jeff Ream]

Thanks Donnie...

as for the lilac parade... rumor has it my twin grandsons were across from the reviewing stands and on TV all morning... cameraman and director couldn't resist total cuteness...

Jeff, as for Denver, had you been there you could have done a very interesting thing... made a list of all corps that pulled into the parking lot of mile high stadium on school buses... Then figure out how many of those corps did not exist the following year... the answer is ... not quite but almost 100% (and trust me, the number of corps driving to Denver on buses that should have been condemned was high)

I don't have the figures, but from the 60's when we counted drum corps in the thousands to the 70's when we counted drum corps in the hundreds... I'll bet that by the end of 1978, the figure was down to 60 or 70...

the numbers were dying out long before that Tom. I'm no DCi apologist, and i place their fair shame of blame on them even when they deny it, but face it.....without Denver, the West was gonna start egtting smaller.

[MDempsey]

i.e. the mentioned migration of St. Joe's guys (and Brigadier guys) to Crusaders for the wonderful 1972 season was without doubt more due to guys wanting to work under Corky Fabrizio than any other reason... Even I will admit that I went back to Cru from Brigs in the fall of 1971 to rejoin Corky.

1st of all a shout out to RayH! Good to see you buddy!

YES 1972 was a sweet year for both CRU and St Joes as we Joes guys had nowhere to go when the corps folded after the 1971 season. If you recall we used to say OFTEN that the 1972 Cru was like a Jr corps(I remember Vinnie B used to say it alot).

We all felt comfortable working with Corky Fabrizio and it was a great year. Some serious talent was onboard, Jerry Kelsey, Joe Pero Sr, half the St Joes drumline and some pretty good leads;-)We had so many leads we had to have a floating squad(I loved not marching) that hid behind the color guard and drumline alot LOL

Cru might not have been a "step up"(I thought it was in some ways) but it was the only option we had. The National Championship in Chicago wasnt bad either;-)

PS I also remember in the old days Vinnie choosing Statesmen to march in Cru if Cru needed it and Statesmen had an open date. We were kinda interchangeable in those days.

Edited May 15, 2006 by MDempsey

[MDempsey]

The other factor that went on at the same time was the wholesale withdrawal of support from drum corps on the part of the Catholic church. So many great junior corps were sponsored by the church, and the combination of greatly increased costs plus (at least in the NYC area) the notion that corps no longer represented "parish kids" cost many a corps their home. Some, like the IC Reveries morphed into other great corps (27th Lancers). Others even got other parishes to sponsor them (St. Joe's Patron to St. Rita's Brassmen), but in the end, these two situations were two big body blows for the activity BEFORE DCI WAS FORMED.

Mark Riley

A serious point to be sure. back in the day there were many drum corps affiliated with the church. Blessed Sacrement, Holy Name, St Vincents, St Kevins, St Joes, St Ritas,. Its a long list for sure. Sure jogged my memory.

I also agree(speaking for myself) that even though I played football, swam, track in high school, it was drum corps that kept me off the streets and out of trouble.