What good comes out of generating a recap sheet of scores?

[MN DCI Fan]

Besides that, each staff has a vested interest in ensuring the integrity of the judging process. If, in any given staff's particular judgment, a certain adjudicator's score is not an accurate reflection of their corps' performance relative to other corps scores and performances (because, as has been mentioned, this is after all a competitive activity), the transparency that's afforded by the recaps ensures accountability on the part of the judge. I chuckled a number of posts ago when someone mentioned something to the effect of (and I'm paraphrasing) "I doubt that staffs go into critique and talk about other corps." In the critiques I've been to, if one judge's score is especially anomalous, or seemingly out-of-line with the rest of the panel (and it happens - judges are not infallible, which fact most will readily admit), those types of things - including other corps' scores - have certainly been discussed.

[Slow Adam]

I don't attend the post contest meetings with the judges, but I doubt very much that instructors are asking judges why another corps scored higher than them.

Maybe you should sit in on critique some day :P

[madscout96]

I've never been involved with the teaching aspect of the activity, but find it hard to believe instructors go into a critique to tell a judge their horn line (Corps A) is better than Corps B and the judge made a mistake. With an opinion based system like drum corps have now ... corps are subject to the evaluation a judge gives a corps ... and the number the judge produces should be generated by the corps performance at that time.

Oh yes, staffs do go into critique and argue placements, compare other corps with their own. There's lots that and some politicking as well. If anything needs to be abolished, it's critiques! Keeping the recap secret from the world would probably do more harm than good.

[Jeff Ream]

Let me throw in another reason for recaps: they add transparency to the process.

Corps A is consistently scoring below Corps B. Corps A fans (and staff) don't understand how the judges can be doing this to them. They look in the recaps and see that, while the visual scores of A are superior to B, they are down in brass, percussion, and guard.

It also allows you to put a number with a judge and understand that there are a number of factors out of your control which influence your score. Kind of an accountability system for the judges.

great point. look at all the accusations made about Chuck King and favoritism........if you follow a pattern over the years, which you can see on the recaps, it shows that there is a basis for what has been said about him.

[drumcat]

No John .. never taught.

Thread over.

[MJHarry]

This is a competitive activity. Do you believe in handing out scores at the end of the night?

Yes I do believe in scores and the competitive aspects of the activity.

Do you believe in placements at all?

Again, yes ...

If you think either placements or scores are worth keeping, then recaps are worth keeping as well.

Sure keep them for archival purposes.

I understand and respect those who believe publicized recaps keep the system honest and transparent.

Does that mean without them it wouldn't be?

I know a good many judges and appreciate the hard task they've taken on. However, I do believe free flowing recaps

make it easy for some to play it safe and assign a number to a corps performance thats in the ball park of what a corps has been scoring lately.

How often have I heard corps staff upset that a corps score suddently took a dive in one particular caption, because there was a judge on the panel that was seeing the corps for the first time? If anything .. that shows the honesty in the system. Now if one corps and only one corps gets dumped that night, yes, there may be a problem OR that one corps may have just had a bad night. BUT, if all the corps in that contest receive scores proportionately different in that same caption across the board, maybe that judge has different standards and arrives at his numbers differently than other judges.

Just because a corps has recieved a 9.0 (for example) five straight contest and then one night they get a 8.1 does that mean the corps did not perform at the same level it had been or does that night's judge see things differently? IMHO, thats the problem with the system we have now ... compared to the old tick system where there was penalties=ticks for mistakes ... and yes, of course that sysem had its problems, too.

Knowing that Corps A beat your hornline by 0.01 means what? And how can anyone actually teach kids to be 0.01 better?

If I learned anything from Bobby Hoffman & Dennis DeLucia during my time in Bayonne Bridgemen it was that better numbers come from performing better.

And ... that you don't need to be on the field trying to BEAT another corps, but simply giving the best performance you can and letting the numbers fall where they may. I'd rather perform for thousands of paying fans than the green clad people who are being paid to be there and evaluate you.

As far as the whole fantasy corps thing ... I don't do it, so it simply doesn't affect me and if thats how you wanna spend your time ... knock yourself out.

The kids who put on these shows have enough stress dealing with the many aspects of touring and performing at the high level that is expected of them.

So how is it productive or constructive for them or anyone to know that Corps A's hornline beat them by 0.2 last night?

The corps tally at the end of the night is reflected by the corps placement and thats how the activity rewards its corps.

Yes there are awards given out for high percussion, brass & colorguard. I also have no problem with that ... so if Corps A is given a best percussion award ... does it really matter if they bested Corps B by 0.02? I don't see how it should ...

I guess its all a matter of philosophy. I can remember getting beat by Guardsmen, Crossmen and North Star during the early parts of the 1979 season. Do I remember what the corps weaknesses were ?? No. I also don't remember ever hearing that Corps A beat us in brass by whatever. Other corps caption scores were of no concern to us. We were focused on one thing .. making finals and getting on TV (Back then only the top 6 corps were televised). Doing our best and improving our program without regard to what others were doing is what brought us to a 6th place finish in Birmingham ... not worrying about who scored what in any caption on a given night. Did the staff look at recaps ... sure, but I believe while they were looking at how we ranked among the other corps they wedre more concerned with how we could improve our own numbers and place better at the end of each night.

Other than the fantasy corps and satisfying some people's curiosity .... what constructive purpose do recaps serve?

Harry

[From The Pressbox]

great point. look at all the accusations made about Chuck King and favoritism........if you follow a pattern over the years, which you can see on the recaps, it shows that there is a basis for what has been said about him.

Except for 1999 DCI Finals. No favoritism there.

Go "King" Devils,

Gregg

w/Stp:

[Jeff Ream]

Sure keep them for archival purposes.

I understand and respect those who believe publicized recaps keep the system honest and transparent.

Does that mean without them it wouldn't be?

I know a good many judges and appreciate the hard task they've taken on. However, I do believe free flowing recaps

make it easy for some to play it safe and assign a number to a corps performance thats in the ball park of what a corps has been scoring lately.

How often have I heard corps staff upset that a corps score suddently took a dive in one particular caption, because there was a judge on the panel that was seeing the corps for the first time? If anything .. that shows the honesty in the system. Now if one corps and only one corps gets dumped that night, yes, there may be a problem OR that one corps may have just had a bad night. BUT, if all the corps in that contest receive scores proportionately different in that same caption across the board, maybe that judge has different standards and arrives at his numbers differently than other judges.

Just because a corps has recieved a 9.0 (for example) five straight contest and then one night they get a 8.1 does that mean the corps did not perform at the same level it had been or does that night's judge see things differently? IMHO, thats the problem with the system we have now ... compared to the old tick system where there was penalties=ticks for mistakes ... and yes, of course that sysem had its problems, too.

Knowing that Corps A beat your hornline by 0.01 means what? And how can anyone actually teach kids to be 0.01 better?

If I learned anything from Bobby Hoffman & Dennis DeLucia during my time in Bayonne Bridgemen it was that better numbers come from performing better.

And ... that you don't need to be on the field trying to BEAT another corps, but simply giving the best performance you can and letting the numbers fall where they may. I'd rather perform for thousands of paying fans than the green clad people who are being paid to be there and evaluate you.

As far as the whole fantasy corps thing ... I don't do it, so it simply doesn't affect me and if thats how you wanna spend your time ... knock yourself out.

The kids who put on these shows have enough stress dealing with the many aspects of touring and performing at the high level that is expected of them.

So how is it productive or constructive for them or anyone to know that Corps A's hornline beat them by 0.2 last night?

The corps tally at the end of the night is reflected by the corps placement and thats how the activity rewards its corps.

Yes there are awards given out for high percussion, brass & colorguard. I also have no problem with that ... so if Corps A is given a best percussion award ... does it really matter if they bested Corps B by 0.02? I don't see how it should ...

I guess its all a matter of philosophy. I can remember getting beat by Guardsmen, Crossmen and North Star during the early parts of the 1979 season. Do I remember what the corps weaknesses were ?? No. I also don't remember ever hearing that Corps A beat us in brass by whatever. Other corps caption scores were of no concern to us. We were focused on one thing .. making finals and getting on TV (Back then only the top 6 corps were televised). Doing our best and improving our program without regard to what others were doing is what brought us to a 6th place finish in Birmingham ... not worrying about who scored what in any caption on a given night. Did the staff look at recaps ... sure, but I believe while they were looking at how we ranked among the other corps they wedre more concerned with how we could improve our own numbers and place better at the end of each night.

Other than the fantasy corps and satisfying some people's curiosity .... what constructive purpose do recaps serve?

Harry

actually, in 1979, all 12 made tv and it was a 4 hour broadcast.

trust me, you need to go to a critique and see exactly how recaps are applied. what you're doing here is basically accusing the entire judging community of being recap hunters and basing their scores on what they saw online.

[MJHarry]

Maybe you should sit in on critique some day :P

Hmmm ... so going into a ctitique and telling a judge his score for another corps is out of line helps your corps score?

With the system we have now .. judges come to a number based on their experience and opinion of that nights performance, yes?

So how can anyone go into a critique and tell a judge his numbers are wrong for any corps, but their own?

Is the judge not entitled to his opinion? And why should a judge listen to anyone telling him he has made a mistake?

I would think it would be more constructive to go into a critique and query the judge about their own corps performance.

Trying to find out what they are doing right and where they need improvement. Knowing why a judge gave another corps

a higher score than your corps should be easy to understand .. he had a higher appreciation for their program and performance.

Isn't that what the numbers are suppose to reflect? Is it more productive to go into a critique trying to convince a judge that you hornline

is better than another corps hornline instead of trying to find out what its going to take to get higher numbers?

Is there an intimidation factor? So that next time the judge sees the corps he'll give them a higher number than the last time?

I would certainly hope not. The placement of the corps really isn't the job of the judges ... Aren't they suppose to give a number based on

the corps performance without regard to whether or nots its higher than Corps A. If Corps A does the better job they'll get the higher score .. right?

And the final placements will come as a result of the total of all the scores awarded by the judges. Drum corps doesn't use ordinances like those used in figure skating does it?

Have a good weekend one and all ... tour starts soon!

Harry

[Jeff Ream]

if you listen to the tapes, and the judge uses box 3 words but gives you box 2 scores, right there you can use the recaps....there are zillions of ways.

but to sit here and watch you say dci judges slot because recaps are available online is assinine.