Are we bored of the old stuff yet?

[wayback]

Wow, Jonathan

I don't believe I've read a more thoughtful post on this issue (innovation - is that what we're calling it?)

Thanks!

true growth for corps will come from stable design staffs who seek to refine and enrich the unique stylistic traditions, the culture, of their corps

not in adopting every new technology, grabbing at every shiny object like a child

"change", "creativity", "Innovation", "progress" - these are all big words, and people use them to mean all kinds of things

The "progress" and "Innovation" embodied in the recent rule changes,

the prop/narration heavy designs rewarded with high scores from the DCI guys

these ARE the forced, shallow, infantile, .....ahhhh let's see ..... more slurs more slurs.... uh cheap-and easy, cheesy gestures

that appeal to the insulated; those cloistered in corps music, I think.

I think if your stuck in drum corps, and that's all you have, you might try to cram things from the 'outside world' into it

rather than step out into the big scary world to find that variety

If you have plenty of musical variety in your life

if corps is not your only musical outlet

you can get your narration and woodwinds and amps and jazz dancing from there

and be happy that corps is about a deep exploration of what it means to be one with your horn/one with your drum/ one with your corps

what is unique about corps?

it is an oral tradition, and the teaching techniques used by the master horn/drum instructors from back in the day

standing in that arc

the warm-ups

no parts

these oral traditions are almost lost.

These are corps drummers, not "percussionists"

these are buglers

the techniques are very old, and they are different and complementary to the German-based, conservatory brass training technique

the old-timers are being pushed out by the PhD's, all products of the music robot machine that is the modern university music department

Are we really ready to say that we want corps to be like, uh... a good university marching band on summer vacation?

What's the f-ing point?

This tradition can go back to a much more traditional approach, and still innovate in a deep and meaningful way.

the idea that George Hopkins and his monkeys @ DCI, with their adolescent fascination with shiny objects, are moving to obliterate a historic and uniquely american tradition is sad.

I see hope, however, in the emergence of the alumni corps scene. They may act as a living archive of teaching techniques and corps traditions that are being so agressively dismissed by the current oligarchy

Edited June 24, 2006 by wayback

[MikeD]

Anyway, to cut to the chase. I like change. Change is a good thing. However, I personally feel as though we're leaving many parts of the activity untouched and laying in the road behind us. I feel as though, even all the way back to the beginning, we have unfinished business in the world of what a corps could do with what was given to them. I mean, we have amps, mics, vocals, etc. now and I don't feel we've even come CLOSE to all the amazing things that could be done with just 3 valved horns. I know, I could've said all the way back to the beginning or G bugles or whatever, but you get my point. I don't feel as though we've exhausted all the possibilities that we could have had and are simply using new toys as a means to lessen creativity... you may think that singing in a show is creative but it's not. Creativity doesn't come the first time you do something with a set of tools. Creativity comes, after years of making things with said tools, you then manage to come out with something amazing (a la the drill work in the 2002 Cavaliers).

What works will remain as part of the pallette of drum corps shows...what doesn't will fade away. Singing can be creative...and it may not be creative, as in anything. It's the use made of the element...any element...that demonstrates creativity.

I don't think anything has been left behind, as you seem to. In '05 you had the leading edge like the Cadets as well as the 'regular' show of Regiment...both wonderfully entertaining and well put together and performed.

Anyway, ranting aside, I just wanted to see if anyone else sees where I am coming from. Not trying to bash anyone or start anything, because like I said, I still think change is good, I'm just worried that, with two goods (creativity and innovation) that we're just leaving one behind to never be fully utilized.

I don't worry at all. There is a wide array of shows out there to please many tastes.

[MikeD]

None of the definitions REQUIRE creativity to be something that uses DIFFERENT tools either.

That's right...but it can...it's all in how the tools are used.

Voice has been allowed for a few decades, yes. And perhaps the fact that they were not legal to amplify ensured that voices were not "over-used". Now with amped voice, over-use is entirely possible.

Any element may be overused. That's no reason to not permit whatever-it-is.

[MikeD]

Are we really ready to say that we want corps to be like, uh... a good university marching band on summer vacation?

What's the f-ing point?

This tradition can go back to a much more traditional approach, and still innovate in a deep and meaningful way.

the idea that George Hopkins and his monkeys @ DCI, with their adolescent fascination with shiny objects, are moving to obliterate a historic and uniquely american tradition is sad.

"They" are not obliterating anything. Drum corps in 2006 is much different than drum corps of 1981...as 81 was different from 1956. Things change over time in drum corps. I hope it never stops changing, as that IS part of what has made it so great, IMO.

I see hope, however, in the emergence of the alumni corps scene. They may act as a living archive of teaching techniques and corps traditions that are being so agressively dismissed by the current oligarchy

That is the wonderful purpose of an alumni corps...it's not the purpose of a DCI corps...and hopefully never will be...IMO.

[wayback]

OK, maybe obliterate is a strong word, and strong words are a sign of a weak argument, usually

and, of course, I know "they" really care about the activity, just like all of us

and the kids, just like all of us.

and this is not about accepting change, sensei, which is not something one accepts or not. it is. Change is not something to which we must submit like a victim, however. We can walk away like so many people are doing. People are less moved, from what I read on this board. It is that an artifact? Is this a skewed sample? Are people on this board just whiney babies? educate me, vetranos.

when I say "they" this, or "they" that, read "the consensus amongst working DCI judges/staff regarding what superficial design features are to be rewarded, as defined both by their sanctioned training and the unspoken understanding of who has power within the activity" - that training and cronyism defines "they". Without some degree of consensus, judging would be impossible. My concern is that this consensus is becoming more and more focused, more narrow, and that "they" may become incapable of recognizing achievement that falls outside that narrow consensus. This narrowing is a consequence of rewarding speed above all other factors of design. You really can't seriously contend that there is as "wide array" of successful styles now as in the past, can you? Even with the limitations of budget, ability, and equipment, corps were far more unique back in the day. '80s Bridgemen, 2-7, BD, vanguard, Scouts - can you really say that any group of 5 corps today can show that stylistic range?

I just think that things are out of balance somehow, but I do see the amazing potential of these kids, and the medium

as a composer and brass player, I think corps as a musical resource remains relatively unexplored territory .

and I think it will remain in that state if the current trend toward second-rate modernist interpretive dance (oy - the bad Martha Graham we see!) and playing @ a full run are the measure of achievement.

Stravinsky once defined #### (for the composer) as "anything goes".

More is not more

[Workenstiff]

change is great.

bring on the woodwinds

my butt

[Jeff Ream]

I was on YouTube watching the Cadets drum feature from the 2001 show... when it was one, it reminded me how much I enjoy that particular one and the one from the 2000 show. And then I got to thinking... you know, in just a few short years, the Cadets have really gone to a new dimension of what drum corps is, as we all have noticed and acknowledged. I do know that change can be good, however, I'm just wondering if the evolution of our activity is going by way to fast? The reason I say this is because of those two Cadet shows I mentioned. I love 2000 especially, and really, there's nothing innovative about it in regards to what we're seeing now. My point? It's very entertaining, impressing me with the skill of the battery (namely the tenors) and the amzing things the hornline does. Then I go back and watch my all time favorite show, 1989 SCV. Again, compared to today, nothing innovate (obviously).

Anyway, to cut to the chase. I like change. Change is a good thing. However, I personally feel as though we're leaving many parts of the activity untouched and laying in the road behind us. I feel as though, even all the way back to the beginning, we have unfinished business in the world of what a corps could do with what was given to them. I mean, we have amps, mics, vocals, etc. now and I don't feel we've even come CLOSE to all the amazing things that could be done with just 3 valved horns. I know, I could've said all the way back to the beginning or G bugles or whatever, but you get my point. I don't feel as though we've exhausted all the possibilities that we could have had and are simply using new toys as a means to lessen creativity... you may think that singing in a show is creative but it's not. Creativity doesn't come the first time you do something with a set of tools. Creativity comes, after years of making things with said tools, you then manage to come out with something amazing (a la the drill work in the 2002 Cavaliers).

Anyway, ranting aside, I just wanted to see if anyone else sees where I am coming from. Not trying to bash anyone or start anything, because like I said, I still think change is good, I'm just worried that, with two goods (creativity and innovation) that we're just leaving one behind to never be fully utilized.

bravo. we keep hearing the new rules led to unstifled creativity.

IMO, maybe it was time for new designers.

[Jeff Ream]

The definition of creativity from various dictionaries:

-producing or using original and unusual ideas

-involving the use of the imagination and original ideas

-new and original

-characterized by originality and expressiveness; imaginative

-having the qualities of something created rather than imitated

NONE of the definitions limit creativity to something that uses the same (said) tools that have already been used for years

Any desire to use the same tools until all possible ideas have been exhausted is a personal preference and not a definition of creativity

becoming something that already exists isnt creative either.

[hughesmr]

Hmmmm...narration innovative? Didn't every old-style marching band in the 60's and 70's use it? They did here in SoCal. It's actually considered really retro in the broader art world to feel the need to explicate everything. Ambiguity and abstraction are more stereotypically "modern", yes? I find it ....I think cheesy is the technical term.

Narration, to me (and this is my own bias) is just like going to the art museum and seeing a painting with a page-long text on the wall in explanation. If you cannot communicate or express yourself by painting, you are not a painter.

If you feel you cannot express yourself adequately with drums & bugles (ie if you feel the need to speak), you might want to choose another medium. Theater comes to mind. If you can't express yourself without woodwinds, there are ensembles that are available. If you can't find an venue for your particular vision, perhaps you should create such a thing for yourself and prove its value to the world (THAT is innovative - creating your own medium/venue)

I think narration/amps/woodwinds are all very interesting, but putting them in corps is unfortunate IMO. That's like joining a club for vegetarians and helping them 'evolve' by bringing meat to dinner. there's nothing wrong with meat, but why would you feel the need to bring it there? There's certainly nothing 'innovative' about meat. There is plenty of room for 'evolution' in vegetarian cooking, and there are plenty of people hungry for meat right across the street!

Are we bored now by brass and percussion?

Is there some deficiency?

If you think something is 'innovative' because it's 'new', that probably just means you haven't gotten out much. There's nothing new under the sun, only things WE haven't seen before. Corps is a very small and insular world for KIDS. If you want to show how creative you are, step out into the marketplace with the adults and try to see if such a thing can survive apart from DCI. Otherwise, I think we should keep all this big talk about innovation and creativity in perspective.

It's marching. It's fun. It's for kids. It's traditions are it's strength.

(ps no one who compiles definitions for dictionaries is an authority on creativity, and quoting such a definition doesn't clarify anything. There are whole philosophy departments filled with aestheticians who can debate the diverse meanings of that word forever. see "modernism" "post-modernism" etc)

PERFECTLY put.

Mike in OH

[KeyBored]

There are 2 kinds of ######## in this world...

One that says "This is new - and therefore good."

And one that says "This is OLD and therefore BETTER."

Judge for yourself.