Cadets

[Tommeee]

Have you checked the recap? Unless I missed something, color guard (3rd place) was the only caption in which they weren't placed 4th or 5th.

Exactly... Performance needs to improve for this show to improve. It's NOT all an issue of design.

I was replying more generally. He asked how a group executing pretty #### close to the top could not do as well as he expected. And I said that execution is not the only factor.

Exactly... Again. This group is executing close to the top, but not AT the top. They are executing in 5th place, in general.

Obviously the Cadets have all the necessary talent within all three performing sections of this years corps. From what I have heard from friends of mine who have witnessed the corps first hand, they believe the program is their down fall.

That's not entirely true. They do, of course, always have the talent. But they are not utilizing that talent to its greatest potential. They are not marching as well as other corps. And they are not playing as well. It's very simple. Take a look/listen to Cavies, Blue Devils, Phantom, and Bluecoats. All four of them are EXECUTING their shows at a higher level than the Cadets right now. It's easy to see and understand.

[Temaltbia]

I just watched their entire program on the seasons pass. How they heck are they not in 3rd? Their drumline is definatly top 3...their hornline is top 3...they march top 3. I just don't get it. Is DCI just not "getting" the show? I know the drum feature is weird because the hornline doesn't play and they carry around stuff, etc...but...they out execute Bluecoats and Phantom. Their show is still solid. I just don't get it.

Don't get me wrong...I have REALLY dug the Bluecoats this year. Phantom is good too...however, something lacks with me in this show...I don't really know what it is though. I just don't see how Cadets aren't in 3rd.

Oh well...

Nate

After seeing the Cadets live a few times and watching the stream on Season Pass, man they still have a lot of work to do. There is just soooooo much going on in this show, it seems to lack focus. The individual sections are strong, nice sound in the horn line, tight drum line, and some cool things happening in the guard, but when you put it all together, well, its a bit much IMO. Blue Coats, BD, PR and Cavies are just much easier on the eye and brain for that matter. Frankly, I think all the props are killing them, many of the transition are a mess. But we'll just have to see, I think if they are not careful they are going to stay right were they are. It appears that everyone ahead of them continues to clean products that seem much more readable to begin with, tough act. But who knows, I did not see them winning last year until I saw them in Allentown, so the great thing about drum corps is you really never can tell until the last week.

[ScribeToo]

I'm about halfway through reading this thread and I just have to make a comment about how people are reacting to Cadets' innovation attempts.

Some of you guys make it seem as though a 5th place finish with this show will make George Hopkins "wake up" and think, "Oh wow.. that did not work.. let's just go back to the way 'drum corps is supposed to be.'"

Do you all realize that just because this innovation was unsuccessful (if it indeed, proves to be unsuccessful) that's not going to make Hopkins and his team stop trying to innovate. Sure they may not make a carbon copy of this show.. but certainly shows in the future are still going to be "out there" and the further they push the boundaries, the more the activity evolves.

No matter what the Cadets have done in recent years, it seems they think so far outside the box as to be completely original and unique in any given season. Nobody is going to be duplicating something they do in the year they do it. And by pushing the limits as far as they do, I think they realize that the outcome will be something of an elastic effect. It may not innovate the activity as far as they tried to with that show, but it WILL push the activity further than it was.. just like if you stretch and stretch and stretch a rubberband, eventually its circumference will increase. That's not always a bad thing.

The catch is, you have to realize sometimes you stretch it too far and it breaks.. maybe the rubberband broke this year?

Still, I believe if we don't push, we don't grow.

If we don't grow, we stagnate.

If we stagnate, we die.

[Temaltbia]

I'm about halfway through reading this thread and I just have to make a comment about how people are reacting to Cadets' innovation attempts.

Some of you guys make it seem as though a 5th place finish with this show will make George Hopkins "wake up" and think, "Oh wow.. that did not work.. let's just go back to the way 'drum corps is supposed to be.'"

Do you all realize that just because this innovation was unsuccessful (if it indeed, proves to be unsuccessful) that's not going to make Hopkins and his team stop trying to innovate. Sure they may not make a carbon copy of this show.. but certainly shows in the future are still going to be "out there" and the further they push the boundaries, the more the activity evolves.

No matter what the Cadets have done in recent years, it seems they think so far outside the box as to be completely original and unique in any given season. Nobody is going to be duplicating something they do in the year they do it. And by pushing the limits as far as they do, I think they realize that the outcome will be something of an elastic effect. It may not innovate the activity as far as they tried to with that show, but it WILL push the activity further than it was.. just like if you stretch and stretch and stretch a rubberband, eventually its circumference will increase. That's not always a bad thing.

The catch is, you have to realize sometimes you stretch it too far and it breaks.. maybe the rubberband broke this year?

Still, I believe if we don't push, we don't grow.

If we don't grow, we stagnate.

If we stagnate, we die.

You make a number of good points about the dynamic tension between driving innovation in the competitive context, there is often a delay between its introduction and the time its takes for the disfusion of such innovations to take hold to reach a "critical mass" of acceptance. Sometimes it takes more than one season. The success of an innovation in drumcorps cannot, and should not, be judged solely on the corps placement. The current system is designed to give credit, ultimate credit to achievement. So, the challege for Cadets appears to be to try to figure out how to sell the innovation in the current judging system. They simply may not achieve this enough to win the championship this year, but I agree that does not mean: (1) the attempt was a failure and (2) they should stop trying to push innovation.

[JFitz19]

I am a big Cadets fan, but I don't believe that they are briging anything new to the table this year. Alice in Wonderland with costumed characters: Madison 1971. Props: many corps, so how about SCV 1986 and 1987. Singing and vocals: Crown 2004, BD 2005. Performing on and jumping off platforms: Cadets 1995, 2002. Surreal/dream show: Cadets 2005. Doing all this at once does not make the program innovative and is not, IMHO, pushing the envelope. I do believe that the judges are reacting to the same show problems that have been amply documented by many on these pages.

[dciguy01]

More than two corps are better.

:P :P

[mobrien]

As previously posted by someone else, there isn't a single major element of the show that hasn't already been done by another corps or a marching band somewhere in this great land of ours. It's very good, in most ways, but it's not really "innovative" in this art form.

The whole "artists not being accepted because they're before their time" thing is misplaced, imho. The Cadets are in 5th now because four other corps have put together better integrated programs or are marching and selling their shows better - AS OF RIGHT NOW. The challenge is out there for Garfield to improve their standing by doing things to help pull their show together tighter from a conceptual standpoint. Ball's in their court.

Edited July 23, 2006 by mobrien

[paultxsa]

As previously posted by someone else, there isn't a single major element of the show that hasn't already been done by another corps or a marching band somewhere in this great land of ours.

I am not, reapeat, am not bashing anyone.

okay?

It's kind of funny that you say that, because at the show they interviewed the girl who does the singing in the show and she said she got that job after being seen essentially doing the same thing in her high school band in the Rio Grande Valley in Texas...

not bashing. not.

[charlesdrum]

After last nights viewing, I thought Cadets should have been 4th, behind Bluecoats, above Phantom. Although a lot of people may not like some of the things being done on the field, they are being done well.....VERY well.

I don't see how Phantom won drums over BD and Cadets. Still a mystery to me.

It is sometimes hard to focus in on what all is going on with Cadets show. I like it. To some it may seem cluttered. Same could also probably be said for Cavies show. There is also so much going on visually. Cavaliers have managed to keep more focal points though, so they have a better visual program overall.

[MikeBob]

Perhaps this is good for them. Their director has been trying to sell us this new image of what drum corps should be for a long time. Perhaps they need it to flop before he understands that while some change is good, most of the drum corps community does not dig his particular brand of progress. I hate to rip on the members, so I'm not. Like the OP said, I bet it is performed very very well. The Cadets have never really been lacking in the execution department. I do believe that their problems this year are almost entirely design based.

The season is not over and anything can happen, but I do hope that Mr. Hopkins will take this less than stellar placement as a grain of salt to his ambition for massive changes in drum corps.

Assuming the Cadets don't win with this show, I hope the opposite: I hope they continue to get weirder and weirder. I hope Hopkins follows his vision no matter what. Because scores don't matter, right? All this business about amplification and so on -- it has nothing to do with being competitive, ostensibly, but with freeing the designers. If design freedom is paramount, then the numbers shouldn't matter at all. Fifth, 7th, 10th, 17th -- whatever! If the Cadets shows of the future stay at this level of weird and the corps's placement steadily drops, we'll all have our answer. If the shows stay weird and the placement improves... well, we'll all have our answer then, too. If the Cadets want to be the corps that pushes the envelope beyond what any other corps would even consider putting on the field, then they have to deal with the consequences of that, assuming low placement is a genuine "consequence" to them. I'm suggesting that for Hopkins, it shouldn't be.