Hop raises great questions about judging!

[johnweldy]

Can we put this to rest once and for all?

JUDGING IS SUBJECTIVE

And it always will be. There is no sure way to judge art, and there never will be.

Heck, those of us who are football fans know there's not even a sure way to judge football. And that's a sport where the goal is not to sway opinion, but to drag a ball over a line. But there are controversies ALL THE TIME. And there always will be, as long as human beings judge.

Even NASCAR, who now uses GPS scoring, still have their fair share of controversies.

Judging is subjective, and it always will be. Just accept it, move on, and enjoy a fantastic season in a fantastic activity. Who cares if your favorite corps gets 1st or 21st? Does that really make you enjoy them any less?

[Tekneek]

Where was he with this question when Cadets got a perfect drum score though you could see problems caught clearly on the video? That line was the best on the field that night, IMO, but they were not perfect.

[spiritalum01]

I think he is right and it has always been obvious, the judges are more interested in getting the spreads and placements correct than they are getting the number to match the criteria sheets. That isn't necessarilly a bad thing however since I think the placements are more important anyways...and usually they get these right.

As far as corps that are very close to each other, they should conceivably flip flop in placements more often. Corps A who has been beating Corps B, can have a bad show one night while Corps B has a great show the same night. In this scenario, does Corps B win? Most often not, unless it happens regularly. Hopkins and the Cadets should know this well since there are plenty of nights when the Cadets have bad shows and still get the good numbers. For instance, Cadet's guard was one of the dirtiest of the night in Birmingham, AL earlier this season from what I witnessed. They still got a better score and for what reason? Reputation...they are The Cadets, defending champions. I have seen plenty of corps getting box five numbers one night, deservedly, and the next night still get the box five numbers even though they did not perform to the standard set by the criteria for getting box 5 numbers.

In the words of a wise old drum corps instructor known as Freddy Martin, "there is no numerical sense to drumcorps." Forget the judges and just enjoy the performances.

[incompleatangler]

Well, I havent' seen G-men in quite a while, and haven't seen Boston this year, so...

That being said, we've been hearing WONDERFUL things about both of these corps (and the whole top 12) all year. Meanwhile even diehard Cadets fans seem to be saying that they see issues with the cadets visual show. It's a terriffic show (imo), and while it's not one of my favorites I like what the designe team has TRIED to do here. The problem is that some of the visual design elements just aren't working the way they want them to. I, for one, would LOVE to hear the tapes that those judges recorded on those nights and hear THEIR explanations for the scores. I'm betting that they reference the box criteria quite nicely. If not, Mr. Hopkins (a true drum corps genious, who knows how to get the most out of his people... and push other people's buttons) would be making his plea to the judging community or other DCI brass, not the online community that chooses to read his blog.

Just my $.02

[The Tsar]

Judging is subjective, and it always will be. Just accept it, move on, and enjoy a fantastic season in a fantastic activity. Who cares if your favorite corps gets 1st or 21st? Does that really make you enjoy them any less?

For some people...those that identify their self-worth with how well their corps (or team, or ______) is doing...short answer is...yes. It does make them enjoy it a little less.

In some ways, I am glad I marched Regiment, which doesn't own but one title. I suppose that when you are on top, you look at things differently. Most years, Regiment would kill for a 2nd place spot. Last year, we were excited by a third year spot. And during our down years, we would have loved a 5th year spot. But for some corps, that is "no good."

Sure, it's nice to have championship expectations every single year...but it does somewhat affect you when there is a "down" year.

[gellio]

Well, I havent' seen G-men in quite a while, and haven't seen Boston this year, so...

That being said, we've been hearing WONDERFUL things about both of these corps (and the whole top 12) all year. Meanwhile even diehard Cadets fans seem to be saying that they see issues with the cadets visual show. It's a terriffic show (imo), and while it's not one of my favorites I like what the designe team has TRIED to do here. The problem is that some of the visual design elements just aren't working the way they want them to. I, for one, would LOVE to hear the tapes that those judges recorded on those nights and hear THEIR explanations for the scores. I'm betting that they reference the box criteria quite nicely. If not, Mr. Hopkins (a true drum corps genious, who knows how to get the most out of his people... and push other people's buttons) would be making his plea to the judging community or other DCI brass, not the online community that chooses to read his blog.

Just my $.02

You (and the previous poster) are right! I did, however, think judging was based on execution, not design. I know design plays a role, and it should!

I'm just puzzled by the criteria.

[Carlosvi7]

Then please explain to me how judging works and how a judge that awards a corps, say a 19.3, arrives at a 19.3.

Obviously I can't becuase I'm not a judge but like Phantombari1 said those other coprs could of had a really good night. People make it seem like there's a conspiracy against The Cadets, but more importantly against Hop.

[gellio]

Can we put this to rest once and for all?

JUDGING IS SUBJECTIVE

And it always will be. There is no sure way to judge art, and there never will be.

Heck, those of us who are football fans know there's not even a sure way to judge football. And that's a sport where the goal is not to sway opinion, but to drag a ball over a line. But there are controversies ALL THE TIME. And there always will be, as long as human beings judge.

Even NASCAR, who now uses GPS scoring, still have their fair share of controversies.

Judging is subjective, and it always will be. Just accept it, move on, and enjoy a fantastic season in a fantastic activity. Who cares if your favorite corps gets 1st or 21st? Does that really make you enjoy them any less?

You know - why read this thread if you're going to be like this? Why waste everyone's time by replying only to scold me? I am trying to 1). understand the judging system more, and 2). bring up a subject from his Blog that struck me as interesting!

[arno0940]

You (and the previous poster) are right! I did, however, think judging was based on execution, not design. I know design plays a role, and it should!

I'm just puzzled by the criteria.

Design plays a huge role in the judging.....corps are evaluated on what they are doing (the Design) and how well they are doing it (execution).

[Tekneek]

You (and the previous poster) are right! I did, however, think judging was based on execution, not design. I know design plays a role, and it should!

I'm just puzzled by the criteria.

I thought it was based on design AND execution. As in, I thought the design of the show (drill design, music composition, guard routine, etc) tended to set your potential points and then execution determined whether you could meet that. That's why a perfectly clean corps with low demand would probably not win it all despite being cleaner than everyone else.