RobH Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 seems to me that corps need to do BOTH - the judges determine scores based on execution and all the other stuff, and the fans determine whether or not they like what they're seeing! During the pre DCI days when I marched, shows were often "dumbed down" a little to make execution a bit easier and thus help boost the scores from the judges (yes, it was under the old Tick system), yet try to keep the fans entertained - sounds like this hasn't changed too much over the years, and that's fine! Ya gotta please BOTH judges AND the fans! It's all about executing the best show you are presenting on the field! and that will never change! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Scott Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 BTW......you marched some good years with Phantom......especially 1991..... :) Thanks! I had a really great time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Bauglir Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I agree with you for the most part. The thing is......was the 1995 and 1997 Madison Scouts accessible ?? Were those two show more accessible then SCV is 1995 and The Cadets in 1997 ?? Based on the reaction of the "Majority" of the fans who were in the stands on finals night I would say 'yes'. I don't think comparing "some" of the crowd reactions is all that opinonated...Triple Forte But are those shows even what is brought up when "for the judges" comes up? I don't think so. I am talking about "I think corps X should start playing more accessible music and stop it with the un-fan friendly esoteric stuff". Those statements come up A LOT on DCP. And they're completely wrong. Because each person making that statement CAN'T know what anyone else will like except for themselves. And they CAN'T even know what most people have liked in the past. The only evidence they can have of that is from the audience about 15 feet around them if they attended a show, or a quick pan of the stands on the DVD. That is far from conclusive. Tons of corps play all sorts of different kinds of music and shows. To say that a show is un-fan friendly or judge-oriented is to say that all fans and judges have only one unified opinion. And that is impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheus Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 some people won't be happy unless you play music they've heard on the drum corps field before. Now that's just wrong. I don't know of anyone who only wants to hear music that's been played before. "Fan-friendly" or "accessible," if you prefer, doesn't have to mean something old and familiar. For every piece of music you love, there was a first time you heard it. Some shows of "familiar" music turn out to be mediocre while some shows of "new" music have become audience favorites. One person cannot speak for "the fans" as a whole. Right. Like people who list BK '06 as an audience friendly show. The whole premise of this thread is preposterous. Clearly some shows are designed to be more entertaining to a general audience than others. Or at least, they're easier for a more "casual" fan to "get." I really don't see how anyone can argue that. Designing a show that will max out the sheets to the greatest extent your corps possibly can doesn't guarantee a great crowd response. So am I totally in a dreamworld all my own? Seems to me like most fans aren't motivated to love a corps just because of great execution, either, but because they generate some level of fun and excitement. Are we saying that the top corps should always be the audience favorite? If there was an "audience award," would the judge's champion always win it? And there's no way Madison '95 could have placed in the top six this past season. Musical and visual expectations have gotten higher, and the rest of the field (i.e. corps other than the six perennial "headliners") have really stepped up their game. If your personal favorite show is always the same one that the judges select as being the best performed and best designed, that's fine, but don't expect everyone to agree. Besides, I thought Madison had a very entertaining show this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheus Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 To say that a show is un-fan friendly or judge-oriented is to say that all fans and judges have only one unified opinion. And that is impossible. Maybe you can't guage it 100% accurately, but to suggest that you can't have a pretty good idea of which shows were fan favorites and which weren't is downright absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunch2402 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I've mulled over what you've said here, and I'll comment this way:If the Scouts show from say, 1995, was played by say, the Blue Knights from 2006, would it be received the same way? No. It wouldn't. You bring up the Scouts in a very generic, vanilla way, as if to say "anyone could play the shows I mentioned and have equal success with it", and I think that's reckless. The Scouts are who they were, are, and will be (and I am not a Scout, so any alum or current member please feel free to correct me) because being a Scout transcends what is put on the field. (That is evident by hearing some of the more senior alums talk to their juniors even here on these forums) The Scouts seem to be the corps that, in spite of uniform/staff/music changes through the years, have maintained their "core/corps" identity - do what it takes to make your members into Men - if you win along the way, it's a fortunate side effect. (And surprisingly, I think you'd find that people who take a lot away from their drum corp experience will share this sentiment) Because I have been out of the loop, I don't know if this still holds true, but when I marched and had friends in The Scouts, I was always baffled by the fact that Scott Stewart gave his members a free day on finals week. Looking back, there is no greater gesture of trust in your men than to say "I trust you have worked hard enough to earn this". Why do I bring this up? Because the camera "stunt" had Scout written all over it: Make sure that you enjoy what it is that you are putting on the field - you'll do it well; Even more, make sure you show the crowd that you are enjoying it. Am I saying "crowd and judges be dam ned" according to the Scouts? Nah. The truth is (according to me!) the Scouts played a show that was written neither for the judges nor for the crowd, but for the members. The members bought into the program and it was evident in every performance they performed. And to any Scouts that may take exception to what I say, please don't - I have the greatest admiration for you and your corps! :) [/stream of consciousness] you know, i only marched madison on year... and i didn't march under stewart... but i would have to say that you hit everything right on the head... thank you!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoFan Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Last time I checked, fans and judges reward exactly the same things: great music, great drill, great general effect, great musicianship...etc. So, why not let fans do the adjudicating? DCI could save a great deal of money by eliminating the judges and allowing the fans to call the shots. After all, according to your post, we fans can do the job just as well as the trained professionals. I realize I'm taking liberties with your idea but I think it should be somewhat obvious that judges and fans are not necessarily always on the same page when it comes to what they reward. (Witness the crowd's response to the announcement of finals placements this year.) Judges are trained to discern and evaluate musicianship, skills and execution (and all the inherent technicalities and nuances that are part and parcel thereof) at levels that are beyond the understanding of most casual fans. The inconsistent flutter tongue technique utilized by the third mellophone will probably go unrecognized in the 27th row, as will the featured dancer's incomplete extension of the leg in the turn-out of the arabesque. Yet, a good judge will most certainly spot such shortomings of technique and, at the same time, reward performers for subtelties that most of us would never recognize. By the same token, while few (I hope) corps set out to create a show geared only towards pleasing the judges while disregarding the fans altogether, designers, arrangers, technicians, et al, most certainly aim for a product that maximizes their group's potential for success in the eyes of those chosen to evaluate their work. In other words, do staff purposefully create boring shows that leave fans sitting on their collective hands? No. Do they write to the judge's sheets? Absolutely. In a perfect world, the two would not be mutually exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 If you are older than the age of participation... you are not the target audience. Your tastes and interests may be quite different than those a bit younger. I seriously doubt that many kids right now would dig Hall & Oates or Kaja Goo Goo... just as they wouldn't dig drum corps from before their time. Anyway, the common retort to this... is about alumni and older fans being the ones buying tickets and paying the bills... if you look at the numbers... that is the way it WAS, but not how it is now. This focus, actually, is what has created the financial stability and the recent growth in the activity. Hrothgar and [insert 'drum corps historical preservation society' member here]... it seems like there might be a number of more constructive ways to channel your energy than to complain. If you like something more traditional (and for older folk)... DCA might be your thing... leave DCI alone... as your ranting and raving will change nothing. You are not the target market... your segment is no longer paying the bills... and no amount of complaining will ever have any relevance. Move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 During the pre DCI days when I marched, shows were often "dumbed down" a little to make execution a bit easier and thus help boost the scores from the judges (yes, it was under the old Tick system), yet try to keep the fans entertained - sounds like this hasn't changed too much over the years, and that's fine! We used to say "It's time to take out the garden hose and start watering!" :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 (edited) And there's no way Madison '95 could have placed in the top six this past season. By far the most ridiculous post I've ever read on this board. What on earth could have possibly changed in DCI in 11 years that a show with INCREDIBLE music and great visuals can't place in the top six? Wasn't that exactly what Phantom Regiment's show was this year? You know as well as I do that Madison '95, peformed musically exactly as it was but with a slightly updated visual program, would still place 4th. I think I need to start a new thread. "I hate that stupid, 'That show that was 4th eleven years ago wouldn't be in the top 6 today' argument." Edited August 24, 2006 by Hrothgar15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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