Bad Innovation

[PhantomFanT10]

I have been reading a lot about innovation as it relates to today's drum corps. innovate

in·no·vate—make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.

I want to do a little exercise for discussion, but also for my own benefit in trying to organize some of my thoughts.

When innovation infringes on the core characteristics of drum corps an erosion takes place which will ultimately destroy true drum corp.

There are certain defining characteristics of drum corps. These characteristics set it apart and make it distinct from marching bands and other forms of theatrical productions. On this message board there is a lot of debate about what those characteristics are and the nuance of each one—hence the raging debate about vocals, etc. My premise is that when innovation bleeds over into these core characteristics then there is an erosion of what drum corps is and that we will be forced to define it as something other than drum corps. Perhaps we will still use the name (for sake or marketing), but the fact is it will be something else.

Analogy: Let's think of baseball. There are certain governing principles of what makes baseball the game it is. If they made a rule that the pitcher no longer pitched the ball, but rolled the ball to home plate, and instead of the batter swinging a bat to hit the ball, he kicked it with his foot, it would then be a different game—kickball. Is that innovation? Yes, it is—as innovation is defined. Of course we know this "sport" already exists, so why would baseball want to make this change?

Innovation as it relates to some of these core characteristics is the crowning achievement for some.

This is where there could be a large amount of debate because we all tend to debate what these "core characteristics" are from a bias based on the time we entered the activity. History (what came before the time we entered) is considered interesting and we pay a certain degree of lip service to it, but in our minds it is often scoffed at as "wanna-be" drum corps. The mantra is: "That was your day, now give us ours!" or, "Let go already and realize that drum corps is an innovative activity that evolves."

That's what makes the thread on having "Retro Shows" so interesting to me. If you read much, you will see a very distinct dichotomy.

Sure, I think that there are some areas that have "evolved" and made the activity better, but I don't think they infringe upon the core characteristics (based on my bias of course). For example, the complexity of today's drill compared to yesteryear is vastly more interesting; however, I would content that the core nature of drum corps has not changed as a result. Some will debate this of course.

Conclusion: Drum Corps is eroding and is need of leadership that will stop tinkering (innovating) with the core characteristics.

Let's think about the future. Let's say in twenty years, you don't even see instruments on the field, but have only people doing vocals. Would that be innovative? Yes. Would it be drum corps? No.

The challenge (and it is a real challenge) is to be creative while maintaining the distinctions of true drum corps. It's too easy and even lazy to add some obtuse element to a show and call it innovation.

I think that the vast majority of those who participate on this board could be defined as Drum Corps fanatics. We LOVE this activity. There are us old farts, and there are you young bucks. To you young bucks, just remember that history has a tendency to repeat itself and I suspect you will be making the same arguments in twenty years. You may just be saying, "Wasn't it great when we had horns on the field!?"

P.S. I don't want this to be a debate about vocals on the field. That is merely an example to help make my point.

No. Dislike innovation? Dig out your tapes and VHS's and leave Drum Corps the heck alone. Drum corps is not eroding. What drum corps IS today, IS Drum Corps. What drum corps was yesterday is NO LONGER drum corps. But it was at one point in time. I don't care how well articulated this argument is. No one is going to change it. And frankly, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I'm sick and tired of hearing people talk about the erosion of drum corps. When there are no longer drums or horns, drum corps will have eroded. But since that is never going to happen, just smile, nod, and pull out your Legacy collection and move from your computer to your TV, goshdarnit...

[Tom Brace]

Thank you for your mini discourse on evolution and for you cheap shot at people who believe in creation—that was helpful.

I'm having trouble with your argument:

Your syllogism:

Major Premise: Innovation is neutral

Minor Premise: Dinosaurs went extinct because they didn't innovate

Conclusion: DCI must continue to innovate or it will die

That's the best I could do with your argument. First of all, you contradict yourself because you start out with Innovation being neutral, but then you argue from evolution. Clearly (using your argument) innovation was NOT neutral to the dinosaurs and to you with your opposable thumb. I must admit that I guessed at your conclusion, but I think it's a fair guess. But, since your Major and Minor premise are flawed I reject your conclusion.

Also, remember that I limited my argument to innovation that deals specifically within the context of the core elements of drum corps (all of which I'm sure could be debated). Maybe we should both write up a list of what we think the core elements are. What IS the foundation of drum corps and what makes it drum corps?

After some blah blah blah from you...contradict schmantra-dict.

Allow me to help. with your troubles...

First...no slap at creationism...people (not dinosaurs) but people can and do choose what to believe in. The facts are that there were once dinosaurs roaming this planet...MILLIONS of years ago.

To the dinosaurs...innovation was not judged....they are unable to judge....ONLY people on this planet are able to judge. Ah, to be human and not a dinosaur.

DCI and everything we do continues to adapt, to innovate. It's just life. Yes, it is a degree thing....yes, all innnovation yields consequences.

So just sit behind a computer and complain. Or bait a bunch of suckers <ME INCLUDED> into an exercise of symantecs.

If you really want to know about bad/good innovations in drum corps and core elements...let me list a few of my own:

1. Amps and mics used to amplify the human voice...I don't like a karaoke singer in front of a drum corps.

2. Spoken word

3. Singing on the field

4. Alumni that fail to support their corps and the continuation of drum corps at all levels.

5. Toes down marching style...what's with that anyway BK?

Innovations I believe are good:

1. Amplifiers and mics to amplify the front ensemble instruments. Saves wrists!

2. Bb brass...not a requirement or mandate mind you...just allowing it to used. Corps make the choice on their own.

3. Leasing buses...fewer corps breakdowns/accidents on the road.

4. The move to Indianapolis...I believe it will prove to be the best innovation to date in DCI.

5. DCP...way better than RAMD

6. DCI today compared to five years ago. Better organized and more proactive now.

7. No ties! (see tons of RAMD posts from 1996 and 1999).

8. Getting rid of inspections, tick system.

9. Having a regional in Atlanta...what a great fan turnout!

10. Bringing finals to the west coast finally.

11. Chucking the spats...I HATE SPATS.

12. Dumping American Legion/ VFW involvement. Moving away from militaristic feel.

13. Generators for the ovens! I can still do monster meals in a roaster though.

Now...core (or corps) elements that should be held onto:

1. The hardest working, most talented, loyal and greatest bunch of marching members we can find, introduce, cultivate.

2. The Esprit d' Corps...says it all.

3. Souvies stands! I just love them.

4. The smell of diesel fuel. The sound of generators.

5. Drum corps kool-aid...it's like every corps has their own concoction

6. The fans....new, old, loyal, supportive..gotta love the big attendance figures from the past couple of years.

7. Some of the venues...Crum Stadium in Allentown..the Glass Bowl in Toledo....NIU in DeKalb....Madison...Horlich Field in Racine. I can still get a beer at a drum corps show in Racine!

8. The "we" part of drum corps...it is one of the few things in our current society that places emphasis on the group rather than the individual. I love it when the news coverage talks about no hotels and no roadies...it's about the section, the ensemble, the corps. That is as great now as it has ever been.

Long enough...

Tom Brace

[Appleknocker]

No. Dislike innovation? Dig out your tapes and VHS's and leave Drum Corps the heck alone. Drum corps is not eroding. What drum corps IS today, IS Drum Corps. What drum corps was yesterday is NO LONGER drum corps. But it was at one point in time. I don't care how well articulated this argument is. No one is going to change it. And frankly, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I'm sick and tired of hearing people talk about the erosion of drum corps. When there are no longer drums or horns, drum corps will have eroded. But since that is never going to happen, just smile, nod, and pull out your Legacy collection and move from your computer to your TV, goshdarnit...

goshdarnit!!!!!

[Granny Smith]

No. Dislike innovation? Dig out your tapes and VHS's and leave Drum Corps the heck alone. Drum corps is not eroding. What drum corps IS today, IS Drum Corps. What drum corps was yesterday is NO LONGER drum corps. But it was at one point in time. I don't care how well articulated this argument is. No one is going to change it. And frankly, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I'm sick and tired of hearing people talk about the erosion of drum corps.

Rhetoric.

When there are no longer drums or horns, drum corps will have eroded. But since that is never going to happen, just smile, nod, and pull out your Legacy collection and move from your computer to your TV, goshdarnit...

Who are you to say it won't be drum corps! Read your own logic above and you will see your own argument is biting you in your a**.

[ErieSopMike]

No. Dislike innovation? Dig out your tapes and VHS's and leave Drum Corps the heck alone. Drum corps is not eroding. What drum corps IS today, IS Drum Corps. What drum corps was yesterday is NO LONGER drum corps. But it was at one point in time. I don't care how well articulated this argument is. No one is going to change it. And frankly, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I'm sick and tired of hearing people talk about the erosion of drum corps. When there are no longer drums or horns, drum corps will have eroded. But since that is never going to happen, just smile, nod, and pull out your Legacy collection and move from your computer to your TV, goshdarnit...

Take another look at what you wrote... when there are no longer drums or horns, that will be what we call drum corps. Never say never... I bet the older corps people said that there will never be electronics, singers, or Bb instruments in drum corps... but look at what's on the field.

[aatlb25]

Take another look at what you wrote... when there are no longer drums or horns, that will be what we call drum corps. Never say never... I bet the older corps people said that there will never be electronics, singers, or Bb instruments in drum corps... but look at what's on the field.

That's because they are logical and have made improvements.

[MikeD]

Take another look at what you wrote... when there are no longer drums or horns, that will be what we call drum corps. Never say never... I bet the older corps people said that there will never be electronics, singers, or Bb instruments in drum corps... but look at what's on the field.

And it's still drum corps.

[ChicagoFan]

DCI and everything we do continues to adapt, to innovate.

Adaptation and innovation are not one in the same. To use the two terms synonymously weakens your arguments even further.

[ErieSopMike]

That's because they are logical and have made improvements.

Ok, I can see electronics being logical to help sound deficiencies. Singers... that doesn't seem logical to me...

Bb instruments, that's logical, G's aren't produced as much and it's more cost-effective, esp. if you have a deal with the dealer (yamaha, etc).

Improvements will be necessary, they always are.

I'd like to know what some of the craziest ideas are that were actually proposed at meetings for things that can be legal in DCI. I don't want someone's thoughts, I want actual ideas that were proposed to the board.

IMO, to improve something, you take it in its original state, and do something to better the quality of it...

Are some of the "innovations/improvements" that DCI allow for the better?? IMO, singers are not and amps in the pit are tolerable. Are there other changes out there that someone hasn't thought of yet? Probably. What are they? I don't know.

[Hrothgar15]

I think everyone is overreacting here. Phantom Regiment's show was spectacular this year. So were Bluecoats, Vanguard, Cavies, Crown, etc. Just because the Cadets chose to incorporate elements some people don't want to see doesn't mean that every corps will follow suit. I still think drum corps is relatively the same as it was ten years ago, or even twenty years ago, EXCEPT for with some corps like the Cadets and Crossmen. Phantom's show would have worked just as well as it did in 1986, 1996, and 2006. Now, if shows like the Cadets' and Crossmen's became the norm, rather than the exception, then drum corps would have changed radically. But in reality, it really hasn't.