The Death of DCI

[Martybucs]

If that TRULY were the case.. and the "frustration for drum corps fans" was that the smaller, local corps are no longer prevalent, then why isn't DII/III thriving??

Doesn't it serve to reason if local community corps that don't tour are gone.. BUT that local, community corps that tour a little but not nearly as much as the DI counterpart corps, that people would SUPPORT THAT in place of what they feel so "frustrated" about losing?

This is exactly why I have such a hard time swallowing the arguments of a lot of you guys. If your presumptions about what "the fans" want were correct, then DII/III would be thriving and growing..

but for some mysterious reason, it's not.

Stef

How convenient of you to select the beginning of what I said and disregard or misrepresent the rest. I didn't say that the "frustration" is, "that the smaller, local corps are no longer prevalent". I also have no, " presumptions about what "the fans" want ..." I don't know how in the world you got that from my post.

I also said in the same post:

Drum corps is slowly morphing away into band. That's the way it is. There is no sense getting angry or defensive about it, because in the end, if people really wanted drum corps to still be "traditional", (whatever that means to you), they would still be that way.

If school bands practiced and competed all summer, then, it would be more like a replacement for corps.

The junior corps youth as well as the all age corps put on a pretty entertaining show. If they disappear it's because people don't want to watch anymore. That would be the fault of....?

[JimF-LowBari]

Mummers are very cool... especially the string bands. Something very different... like Vegas meets polka on the streets of Philly.

It was actually Hopkins that introduced me to the Mummers... watched the parade at his place... I had no clue what it was before then, being a west coast kid.

Mummers are possibly the only marching musical group crazier than corps people. Found that out at a windy Mid-Winter parade watching a Mummers DM. Everytime he'd go thru an intersection (IOW, where there were no buildings to block the wind) his big headress would get blown backwards (with his head still in it).

And that's not even mentioning the guy carrying a string bass playing with no gloves at 10 degrees. :sshh:

[BOBSMYTH]

Whether folks use " old math " or " new math ", it won't matter. When there are SEVERAL HUNDRED more Drum Corps shows across the USA and Canada, there is more cumulative attendance in aggregate.

{snip}

I need to dispute one of your indisputable facts. Can you tell us which year(s) there were "SEVERAL HUNDRED more Drum Corps shows across the USA and Canada"?

I can find no evidence of this. On the DCI 2007 event calendar as it stands right now, there are 136 shows listed. To make your statement true there would need to be a minimum of 336 shows per year, every year for a given era of drum corps. I looked at some old Drum Corps Worlds as well as corpsreps.com and I can't find any year that even comes close to your assertion. If it were true that we've lost a minimum of 200 shows, that would be at least a 60% decline in the number of shows. Now, to be fair, there are many shows missing from the corpsreps database - especially from the earlier years and even DCW might not have a complete archive. Even allowing for that, I can't come close to your claim.

Here is my take: the number of shows in a given year fluctuates from year to year depending on how the calendar lays out. There are a few less shows on average in more recent years compared to several decades ago. For example, there is no question Canada is missing their FAMQ and ODCA events. But, the difference in the total number of shows combined for any given year isn't nearly as many as some might think.

Comparing this year's event calendar against a calendar from the 70's, there would be a couple of things that would stand out.

The 70's schedule would most likely start earlier by 1 or 2 weeks (depending on the area of the country) and run a week longer into August. There would probably be some shows that fell after DCI Finals. Most of the shows would be on the weekends (Fri, Sat & Sun). Back in those days, a 2 week tour leading into the DCI Championship city was fairly routine for many open class corps.

However, while starting later and ending earlier, the 2007 schedule is more tightly packed with many weeknights having multiple events around the country. This is made possible by the longer (both in distance and in time) touring that Division I corps do these days.

These differences in the way the calendar plays out and the way shows are currently scheduled means that there are not HUNDREDS of shows missing.

It appears to me that the number of shows is off by about +/- 5% to 15% over time depending on which eras you are comparing. I can even find a few years in the last ten where the number of shows is actually higher than "back in the day" and thus could argue that the number of shows is growing (but drawing a trend line off of just 2 points is not always accurate so I won't go there).

[Vagabond Skyliner]

I do not see the Death of DCI. I see the end of "Drum and Bugle Corps". Maybe one day they will "Evolve" the one thing they need to change the most. The"DCI" Name to, "BBFT" "Brass Band Field Theater"

Now lets see how this goes.

1 - More times than not you use "Band Instruments". including, but not limited to;

Trumpet's, Tuba's, Xylophone's etc. Instead of BUGLES.

2 - You use a "Visual Dance Ensemble" that use Streamers, Balloons, Umbrellas, Costuming, some forms of plastic and/or wood to resemble rifles,and even Tires, Ladders, Tables, Chairs, and various shaped fabric on various length's. sticks and poles. They dance, run, skip, roll on the ground, sing and whatever. There are No Colors (National Flag) or rifles to Guard.

3 - You have Students and Faculty, and consider yourself an Academic setting or school in the Performing Arts.

4 - You tour, and want to receive a crowd response, like the Rolling Stones (past or present)

5 - BUT, you what to be thought of more like the New York Philharmonic.

6 - You have a whole new style of Writers and Designers. They take almost any kind of music and re-write it to their own version. Often to the point almost no one knows what they are playing with out a narrator of hand out.

7 - then you have the Amps, Microphones, Singing (both as a Soloist and Ensemble) and soon The electronic sounds of almost anything.

8 - You do not march "Military Corps" style.

9 - If many had their way. No Scores. Just maybe "Gold,Silver, & Bronze Medals".

None of the above is BAD or Evil. If that is what you want Fine, Good Deal, Have at it. No Problem! May you go on and Prosper!!

BUT,

Then you wonder why those of us that Marched in "Drum and Bugle Corps" do not consider what you do to BE, "Drum and Bugle Corps. It seems that the Only thing you do not want to change is the Term that describes what are. To me that is "Brass Band Field Theater". That is not meant as a knock on what you do. It just seems to fit.

You have one Fantastic, High Quality product. Worthy of High Praise and Professional status. But, you do not have "Drum and Bugle Corps". Whether the present Cavaliers (or any and all others) paint it on their Trucks and Bus's or on T-shirts and Stickers. There once was a (Chicago) Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. No longer. They have "EVOLVED" into, "The Cavaliers" and are an out growth of that Corps. They are now one of the Highest Quality groups in DCI. A "World Champion Brass Band Field Theater" group.

"Drum and Bugle Corps" is gone. Except for some Alumni Corps, Mini Corps, and some DCA Corps.

[Hrothgar15]

I do not see the Death of DCI. I see the end of "Drum and Bugle Corps". Maybe one day they will "Evolve" the one thing they need to change the most. The"DCI" Name to, "BBFT" "Brass Band Field Theater"

Now lets see how this goes.

1 - More times than not you use "Band Instruments". including, but not limited to;

Trumpet's, Tuba's, Xylophone's etc. Instead of BUGLES.

2 - You use a "Visual Dance Ensemble" that use Streamers, Balloons, Umbrellas, Costuming, some forms of plastic and/or wood to resemble rifles,and even Tires, Ladders, Tables, Chairs, and various shaped fabric on various length's. sticks and poles. They dance, run, skip, roll on the ground, sing and whatever. There are No Colors (National Flag) or rifles to Guard.

3 - You have Students and Faculty, and consider yourself an Academic setting or school in the Performing Arts.

4 - You tour, and want to receive a crowd response, like the Rolling Stones (past or present)

5 - BUT, you what to be thought of more like the New York Philharmonic.

6 - You have a whole new style of Writers and Designers. They take almost any kind of music and re-write it to their own version. Often to the point almost no one knows what they are playing with out a narrator of hand out.

7 - then you have the Amps, Microphones, Singing (both as a Soloist and Ensemble) and soon The electronic sounds of almost anything.

8 - You do not march "Military Corps" style.

9 - If many had their way. No Scores. Just maybe "Gold,Silver, & Bronze Medals".

None of the above is BAD or Evil. If that is what you want Fine, Good Deal, Have at it. No Problem! May you go on and Prosper!!

BUT,

Then you wonder why those of us that Marched in "Drum and Bugle Corps" do not consider what you do to BE, "Drum and Bugle Corps. It seems that the Only thing you do not want to change is the Term that describes what are. To me that is "Brass Band Field Theater". That is not meant as a knock on what you do. It just seems to fit.

You have one Fantastic, High Quality product. Worthy of High Praise and Professional status. But, you do not have "Drum and Bugle Corps". Whether the present Cavaliers (or any and all others) paint it on their Trucks and Bus's or on T-shirts and Stickers. There once was a (Chicago) Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. No longer. They have "EVOLVED" into, "The Cavaliers" and are an out growth of that Corps. They are now one of the Highest Quality groups in DCI. A "World Champion Brass Band Field Theater" group.

"Drum and Bugle Corps" is gone. Except for some Alumni Corps, Mini Corps, and some DCA Corps.

Well, it has drums and bugles, and it's a corps.

So...you're wrong.

[Bob984]

IMO corps like BD, Madison, SCV (to name the ones still around from your list), plus Cadets and Cavies (to replace the other two)...present just as diverse shows as you assert. Think back to the 70's for true 'copycats'....how many corps played Chuck Mangione tunes...how many played "Children of Sanchez" the same year? "Echano"? How many "Battle Hymns" were there over time?

I said there is still diversity, and I never said there weren't any copycats going on in the 70's and 80's.....however, it is definitely not AS diverse.....who today in division I would compare in terms of being "different" to Bayonne or VK? Nobody. And I also feel that we have some corps who have tried to find "an identity" (and these corps are finalists), and IMO, have failed to do so, simply looking like a "B" version of someone they look like they are imitating. Whereas I am still hearing some (the key word is some) good arrangements (which keeps me coming back), I am also hearing some entire programs where the arranger, IMO, was unsuccessful. If the musical product isn't "hot"......for me, there is nothing the visual program can do to save it........

GB

[Vagabond Skyliner]

Edited March 2, 2007 by LucysSkylinerAlumni

[Hrothgar15]

No, Sorry but they BUY for example "Yamaha BAND Instruments" (Trumpets Tubas ETC)

and it is BRASS BAND!

Those instruments are bugles.

[Bob984]

And without the visual, drum corps would just be independent wind ensembles. Drum corps appeals to both senses, and if either is emphasized over the other, then the product becomes less than it could.

Please explain what you mean by "disconnect". If I recall, the two corps you named as being so different philosophically happened to finish first and second last year, seperated by just tenths of a point. In fact, the corps you named as emphasizing visual won the Music GE caption, while the corps you named as emphasizing music won the Visual GE caption.

That's fine and dandy. Now show me where there's a visual bias. Show me that music is de-emphasized, particularly in favor of visual. Give me examples, and please give me something more concrete than personal opinion. I'm willing to bet that much of the music corps play that turns you off happens to be the same music that I end up playing over and over.

50/50 balance is killing drum corps? Do you really mean that? I challenge you to tell me that you've ever gone to a drum corps show, and sat with your eyes closed the whole time. Sure, you could, but why? You'd be missing out on half the show. In fact, nearly a quarter of any corps never picks up an instrument at all, the guard exists to add solely to the visual. Why would you honestly suggest that either component, music or visual, be slighted in favor of the other? If you give either less attention, then you're going to end up with a lesser product. If you ask me, the attention that designers are currently giving to both music an visual, and more importantly to the combined effect of both, is leading to tremendous shows, shows that are greater than just the sum of either part. In this way, a 50/50 balance is only going to make the activity stronger.

(1) There were more inconsistencies in judging of the brass/ensemble/music effect captions than any others......I sat among many educators and hall of famers, during DCI week, and there were serious questions about this....

(2) Visual bias is simple to indicate......the show that won last year was a visual oriented show. I spoke to around 100 music educators friends of mine....although I will admit it wasn't unanimous, 85% of them disagreed with the champion named and also the finish in the captions mentioned above....

(3) The winner's visual numbers mysteriously catapulted to "astronomical" levels at finals....if you can honestly tell me that the two 19.9's were fully earned, I have no comment.....

(4) I have RAN to hear certain corps standstills performance, because the music was hot. IMO, there are problems with several corps' musical arrangements, and I am not alone....There is NOTHING the visual can do to fix the musical arrangement problems....NOTHING.....before you state this is just opinion, there are many who feel the same way...I have nothing against a corps having a great visual program, but if the music is not happening, it's not happening. Not all effects are "combined" as you say....some are largely visually generated, some largely music generated, and some both.

GB

[Fran Haring]

Mummers are very cool... especially the string bands. Something very different... like Vegas meets polka on the streets of Philly.

It was actually Hopkins that introduced me to the Mummers... watched the parade at his place... I had no clue what it was before then, being a west coast kid.

Off-topic a bit, I know.... but I agree with you about the Mummers bands. We've seen the "Mummers Show of Shows" a few times through the years (it's an indoor exhibition, held every February, of the top-placing Mummers bands from that year's New Year's Day parade)... and it's an awesome show. A completely unique form of entertainment.

Between the elaborate costuming and the outrageous props used by many of the bands, it has to cost them a fortune to field a unit from year to year.

Fran