I want a clear, honest, and well thought answer to this

[BozzlyB]

Naration, electronics, and amplification are talking points for stubborn traditionalists to get cranky about, but they don't change what drum and bugle corps is at it's core. Woodwinds, on the other hand, would change the basic brass/drums package necessary to define a drum corps. Nothing against the visual stuff, but you could loose the color guard and you would still have a drum and bugle corps. That logic doesn't work if you loose the brass or drums. DCI may not cease to exist if woodwinds are added, but compettitive drum and bugle corps will, regardless of what label the activity bears.

[higherlouderfaster]

I'm bored with this. I'm going elsewhere.

Hey there Scott,

Just in case you do come back to this thread, I just wanted to say "hi." It sure has been a long time...twenty years!!! I hope all is well with you.

One thing this thread sure seems to prove is that we will probably never see a good "knock 'em out of the stands" drum corps like we did back in the 80s. Now its all about subtlety, and artistic expression. I'll take the good old "six pack and pizza" drum corps days over this "wine and cheese" stuff they're doing today in a heartbeat!!!

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I'm cool with woodwinds.

Who said anything about singing? Please don't make blanket statements about music and stuff several centuries of art into your little box which has already been disproven many many times. Listen, let give you some examples of what I'm talking about (though I've heard plenty of BOA examples that have worked GREAT, I will provide something else).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/...6230268-5543359

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/...6230268-5543359

These are clips from two movements of a piece by Steve Reich called Different Trains, for double string quartet and tape. It makes use of the human voice (quite #### well, the actual melodic content is actually lifted from the contour of the sampled voices). Reich, being Jewish, basically uses this piece to recollect how between 1939 and 1941 he would ride the train across the continental U.S. visiting his parents, but realizes that had he grown up in Europe at the time he wouldn't be on a train visiting his parents, but rather heading towards a concentration camp. It's incredibly moving, and wouldn't be half as effective were it not for Reich's ingenuity with electronics in addition to traditional techniques. The recording of that work went on to win a Grammy for Best Classical Composition I believe... That being said...

I find it disturbing that when I even mention narration you automatically spout, "I DON'T WANT THINGS BEING EXPLAINED TO ME!!!" Narration has a larger purpose than that, and the things you're saying are pretty much uninformed and demeaning of the many things that have been done, are being done now and will be in the future. Don't attempt to turn me into some sort of fiend trying to ruin your "precious drum corps", all I am saying with this thread is that drum corps could be capable of so much more artistically.

"But Einstein, are you saying that electronics are necessary for to be more artistic"

The answer to that is YES. If not just electronics, but anything. Drum corps is already moving into the direction of a more theatrical medium, why not just let it happen? Why are we stunting the growth of possible greatness?

Seems to me you are stuffing anyone who disagrees with into a box because they won't agree with you. The fact of the matter is that you have a favorable opinion on something in which other people do not. Guess what, that's allowed. Yet, anyone who disagrees with you is dismissed as not giving a "real" reason. You don't have a "real" reason except that you want it and think it will work. You cite an example that has nothing to do with drum corps as evidence of how good drum corps could be. I have not heard Different Trains, but I am sure it is a powerful and moving piece. That does not provide evidence that electronics and narration should be part of drum corps. It does prove that you believe drum corps would be better with it. You are not trying to say that if drum corps started using these things that they will start being nominated for Grammys, are you? You just have to face the fact that some people, like me, enjoy the idiom with pure human power. Pro-electronic/narration/woodwind people seem to think that these things are the only way for drum corps to progress. That's bunk. There are loads of things that drum corps can do without adding any of the things you feel are necessary. You have been presented "clear, honest, well thought out answers," you just don't accept them, and that's OK too. But you can't say they are not "clear, honest or well thought out" just because they contradict your opinion. In essence, you are saying is that unless someone agrees with you they are not clear or honost or well thought out as well as missing the point.

I get your point. It is clear. It is honest. It is well thought out. It is one I disagree with. Why? Let me be clear, honest, and I have thought this out for many years. I like the uniqueness of the exclusively brass and percussion sound. I like the purity of the unamplified sound. I like the sound of the instrumental ensamble and I prefer not to have the human voice, as beautiful as it can be, distract from the sound. When I want to hear something different, be it poetry, singing, woodwinds, electronic instruments or what have you, I go to those idioms to see them. In fact, if I went to see the ballet, I would not want the distraction of a full drum line in the orchestra pit. If I went to hear a string quartet, I would not want to see the Blue Devils horn line accompanying them. I know where to find the Blue Devils and I do. There is plenty of room for artistic expression within the idiom proven by the fact that drum corps have pushed the envelope for decades as an unamplified brass and percussion idiom. So there is my clear, honest and well though out response. It will be one you disagree with. I'm OK with that because we are discussing opinions, so, on with the show.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I've yet to get one actual educated response in this thread, it's all the same, "IT SHOULDN'T BE THERE CUZ I DON'T LIKE IT".

You have had several educated responses, you just disagree with them. If you feel that all we are saying is, "IT SHOULDN'T BE THERE CUZ I DON'T LIKE IT," then all your saying is "IT SHOULD BE THERE BECAUSE I DO LIKE IT." As I said above, you have a clear, honest, well thought out opinion on this subject. So do I. It is very different from yours.

Please DCP, send me just one person to prove me wrong :(

The only way to prove you wrong is to say that you are lying about your opinion. You are not. DCP has sent you several people who have clear, honest and well thought out opinions that are different than yours.

Edited April 19, 2007 by DrumCorpsFan27

[BozzlyB]

also, there is no point to adding woodwinds to drum corps. You are only creating something that already exists.

"Imagine what drum corps would be capable of artistically with the amount of talent they have at their disposal in relation to BOA."

So drum corps should cease to exist so that it can become the "talented" version of BOA? Do you have somthing against having some variety out there for what is considered the "marching arts"? I can't help but get the impression that the author of this thread and many others are just jealous that even the best bands can't hold a stick to the vast majority of August level corps, and for whatever reason aren't able to identify with drum corps as being "theirs". Bands do not achieve the same level of performance as drum corps for one simple fact. They do not have the ability to focus the intense amount of time and energy on one 10.5 minute production, that is required to achieve the level of perfection that drum corps are able to achieve, but only after a TEN MONTH season resulting in THOUSANDS of hours spent perfecting 10.5 minutes of music and drill. Bands, by the nature of their function as a well rounded education in music, must spend much of their time and energy on other pursuits.

[drumcat]

Now to specifically address electronic keyboards: First of all, I'd like to point out to drumcat that not all synthesizers are "samplers." There are many different ways of creating the sound that a synth produces, as well as the difference between electronic and analog, but I'm not going to delve into that here (primarily because I don't even understand it too well, although I've been reading and trying to figure it out). Second, many of those same advanced performance techniques can be applied to a synthesizer, especially if that synth has the aftertouch ability (in other words, you can manipulate the sound after you press the key by adding or reducing the amount of pressure that is applied to the keys). Additionally, many synthesizers come with a huge variety of effects that can be employed to create an infinite variety of effects. An experiened synth player would be able to expertly master all those knobs, control and patches to create the appropriate sound effect, often having to spend hours tinkering and exploring to find the right combination, and then being expected to switch settings on demand multiple times with seamless execution during a performance. Sound easy? Hardly. In addition, if the synth is a "workstation" you have the ability to edit your patches in several ways. One of the big ways you can edit a patch is in the attack/sustain/release area. In other words, how much pressure does it take to play it a note and how will it attack (hard, fast attack like a pizzicato string section or slow build?), how will the note sustain, and then when you release does it taper off or release immediately? In addition patches can be layered to create new combination of sound effects. And knowing how picky corps directors can be, I imagine that any kid playing a synth on tour is going to spend a LOT of time tweaking patches to create "just the right sound." And of course, there's always the limitation placed on how many sounds/effect can be played at one time (in other words, how much memory does it have?) which can tax a synth player's creativity if they're running out of memory.

Mistofflies, first I'd like to thank you for entirely underestimating my knowledge in this area. I'm well frickin' aware that some keyboards can be synthetic. Second, and most importantly, you're in denial about sound quality. Yes, there are players that can play piano better than others, of course. But to be honest about the activity, you have to say that those players aren't really out on the field that often. Most kids in drum corps play what is on the page as well as they can, running around, and mastering their parts - not trying to delve into the interpretation of the music beyond how they're instructed to. Sure, solos and such get interesting, but let's not suggest that all 135 are virtuosos.

I'm quite aware of aftertouch, use of weighted keys, effects, and all the rest that goes with playing "realistically". You mention that there's going to be a lot of knob-twisting and such, and I would strongly argue that the knob-twisting would never happen, short of a little pitch-bend. Why? Because the mixing board was too complicated for the students. That went to a staffer. I don't think that you'd give the responsibility to change instruments to a staffer, but everything would be pre-programmed. Players would toggle through the different instrument settings. Staffers would still control the volume.

It really isn't that I think that someone is going to bust out Axel F. It's not as if I think brass lines would disappear. I can tell you that I think it's lazy, and that any sound that will be created either could have been something created with an amped, analog instrument, or will sound foreign.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what instrument they need to play that is a brass or percussion instrument (as the rule stated they would be) that needs to be of an electronic-analog that cannot be amped and mic'd today. To this point, I've waited two months for anyone to bring up a single example outside of the debatable concept of a piano (is a piano percussion? maybe...). I don't believe there are any others out there. I believe that adding sampling is about breaking down the instrumentation door. But there are plenty of reasons not to go that way. Right down to The Cadets having to use a vibraphone for the doorbell the last two years -- it's likely that they'd have gotten a real doorbell sampled and played back. That's the shame in it.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I've never come across any sort of problem with the narration. Granted, drum corps haven't really done the greatest job with it yet. One of the best attempts so far has been BD 05. People I've showed that performance too liked the show a lot.

Foxborough, 2005. The Blue Devil narrator says, "Yowza, yowza, yowza, when will it end?" The person next to me replied, "hopefully soon."

[Meaghatron]

Foxborough, 2005. The Blue Devil narrator says, "Yowza, yowza, yowza, when will it end?" The person next to me replied, "hopefully soon."

I've never seen that show. Should I watch it?

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Finally, someone who respects history. Realizes America should still be slave-owning and under her Majesty's empire. God save the queen.

And yet another poster spouting the tired old same thing of "if you are against one change, you must be against all changes."

Once again I will tell you that you are WRONG!

[DrumCorpsFan27]

"Do pit instruments really need to be amplified?"

Short answer: yes. For the sake of art, yes. If not, you have a lot of people doubling just to make a part heard. Basically, you're arguing that we should do away with the pits, since they can't be heard over the hornline. You're really old-school, aren't you?

And for people who think amplification of the pit means smaller pit, no, it means more parts. Less doubling.

"Arent the brass and drums the core element of the whole activity? Shouldnt that element be protected from anything that would diminish it? Bass guitars, keyboards" ouch. I play keyboards ;( They've been in the activity a while.

I've always been able to hear the pits. What's the problem?