I want a clear, honest, and well thought answer to this

[MikeD]

So even if changes drive people away, you'd recommend more changes. Talk about "change for the sake of change".

100% wrong, but feel free to misunderstand all you like.

[audiodb]

No, because it would be irresponsible.

Ok I guess you must've missed the part where I pointed out that it will take TIME for designers to figure out how to use electronics effectively. They made a mistake, they corrected it. It will take a few trials and errors along the way to figure out to integrate electronics in ways that aren't (a.) annoying/distracting and (b.) so totally reliant on electronics that if something came along such as a thunderstorm the show would be un-performable.

Ok I have to ask, have you ever marched? Or at least, recently? Are you at all familiar with the current judging system?

Oh, the "current" system?

Here, let me help you out:

From the quality of technique subcaption of brass performance: To achieve the highest score (Box 5), players must “exhibit brass training of the highest level. Rhythmic lapses are rare and minor. Tonal focus is rarely lost and timbre is uniform throughout. Concentration is superior. Maximum demands are consistently present and are almost always met.” (Section 8.4.2.6).

From the musicianship subcaption of brass performance: To achieve the highest score (Box 5): “Clear, meaningful and expressive shaping of musical passages; proper and uniform stress; natural, well-defined, and sensitive playing throughout; valid, tasteful and idiomatically correct interpretation; tempo, rhythm, dynamics, phrasing, accents, timbre all combine to interpret stylistically and communicate emotionally; involved; musical. Maximum musical demands are consistently present throughout the entire performance.” (Sec. 8.4.5.6).

Wow, that seems so impressive. Excerpts from the 1994 DCI judging sheets. But the rest of us can find that material on the Internet too.

So what do you know about the "current" DCI judging system?

Ok, let me make this mind-blisteringly clear to you: field judges will not reward shows that don't have demand written into them. You're not going to see drum corps turn into Daft Punk concerts. Ok? That's not going to happen. To be competitively successful the judging system REQUIRES hornlines to have demanding books that display a vast array of proficiencies.

OK, I can't make this mind-blisteringly clear, because it's not as simple as black-and-white. Demand is relative. Judging is subjective. Judges are human. Combine those three truths, and you must acknowledge that some amount of sonic synthesis can be mixed into a DCI performance without the pertinent judge adjusting his score to reflect the true demand and achievement involved (if we even agree on what that is).

And to address the idea of the circular argument: if you would read the conversation between drumcat and myself you would see that's not so. I gave that explanation because most people don't understand what it means to play a piano or synth well. But how many musicians on the field actually play their instruments "well" in the classical sense? Not many. I don't imagine that people are going to be playing synths like little Yannis on the field any more than I expect a typical drum corps trumpet-player to sound like Maurice Andre. I'm simply trying to deconstruct the notion that "PLAYING A SYNTH IS EASY LOLLOLLOLLOL."

Great. But let's not lose the distinction drumcat is making regarding quality of sound - the challenges of the brass and/or percussion performer that the synth player need not conquer because they're pre-programmed into the sample.

And were they well-rewarded for that? They placed what, 9th? 10th? Obviously Boston's horn books are going to have to get more demanding if they're going to be more competitive. You're only proving my point.

Hey, it got them to that "box 5" level you were just talking about.

Well first of all I expect that they have pretty well-trained ears and they have eyes and maybe a dash of common sense so that they can see whether or not a human marimba player is actually playing a part.

Read my post, please. It doesn't matter if they're playing the part, or if the judge can see that detail from the press box (both debatable already). Cut the amps to the marimbas, and crank up the synth, and the judge is no longer hearing what he's seeing.

And there's always the sticky matter of the on-field judges who would be able to tell what's going on.

If you know so much about the "current judging system", then you should realize that GE judges are not on the field.

And besides, if electronics were enacted there would be *gasp* rules that would prevent that from happening. You make it sound like George Hopkins is just dying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes and field a corps that doesn't actually play a single note while a few well-programmed electronic devices flawlessly reproduce a show night after night.

Nice hyperbole. Wait - you don't really think that's what I was saying, do you?

[karl E. Hungus]

hey, einstien.... you do realize this thread was basically a nuclear landmine right?

lol

[cowtown]

I hate coming late to a mega-thread, did not really read it but did want to chime in a bit. The OP frames the question in a way that because he likes it we should all like it, also peppered with a bit of but they do really well so we should do it.

Frankly, at best, it’s a dilution of the medium, it waters down what I look for and like by shifting emphasis and focus away from the drums, the bugles and the guard, its outside the medium. It’s weak, lazy and non-essential to simply absurd, again I don’t even consider it part of the medium it’s a bastardization.

Why don’t I like ballet, I like listening to a live orchestra, even like some ballet music. And even though I appreciate the talent and skills of the dancers, I hate going to ballet, it bores me. If they did the same ballet without the dancers and put the orchestra front and center – then I’d like it. I also don’t like country and western music, a lot of things I don’t like – don’t really need to explain why but when they contaminate something I do like with this sort of nonsense they need to justify the change and they haven’t.

So the question is, as always why do we need them?

We don’t.

Never seen a good argument that convinced me otherwise and the results on the field are even less convincing.

If you think it’s so great in BOA, go to BOA. Reminds me of that ice skating vs. ice dancing debate – the ice dancers don’t try to change the rules of ice skating so that they can compete in both – they accept the difference of the mediums (rules) because it both become the same, there is only one.

I’d rather have 2, not one because I only like one of the 2 and the one I like is being destroyed by the 2, then I won’t have anything.

And I think calling you a Bando is a valid argument but won’t go into that here, bando

[MikeD]

Why don’t I like ballet, I like listening to a live orchestra, even like some ballet music. And even though I appreciate the talent and skills of the dancers, I hate going to ballet, it bores me. If they did the same ballet without the dancers and put the orchestra front and center – then I’d like it.

What if they put the string bass section in tights and tu-tus and had them dance with their basses? :)

I also don’t like country and western music, a lot of things I don’t like – don’t really need to explain why but when they contaminate something I do like with this sort of nonsense they need to justify the change and they haven’t.

It's not contamination, it's making drum corps better. As for justifiying it, actually no, "they" do not have to.

If you don't like it, don't go. If you do...continue to go. It's a easy as that. As long as attendance numbers remain good I see no reason for DCI to modify their approach towards instrumentation and visual concept enhancements as has been happening since even before DCI came along.

[cowtown]

As long as attendance numbers remain good

Could you post a link for me with all the years finals attendences record?

Not interested in regional shows as the format has recently changed, just finals night – oh, and non-adjusted numbers too, the numbers they reported that year for that final

Thanks

see, I've been to a lot of finals, first one in 72 last one in 06

[Jamesdrum007]

BD 05 was a good show..

I've only read the first 13 pages of this post. But I believe that Eistein has provoked some very intelligent dialogue. And I commend all who participated for your good thoughts and opinions. I've enjoyed them, even Mike Davis! (just KIDDING Mike!) This topic was/is much "meatier" than many I view on DCP. So thanks to all of you.

ciabattam took some criticism for the above statement about 05 BD show. In defense, I must admit that he/she is correct: technically, for the record, it WAS a good show. I guess it depends upon your definition of "good". Unfortunately for BD (and perhaps some audience members?) most people agree that there were several EXCELLENT and SUPERIOR shows that night/year that surpassed BD's "good" show. It was good, it just paled by comparison to many others.

YOWZA! YOWZA!

[audiodb]

If you don't like it, don't go. If you do...continue to go. It's a easy as that. As long as attendance numbers remain good I see no reason for DCI to modify their approach towards instrumentation and visual concept enhancements as has been happening since even before DCI came along.

Back to "if you don't like the changes, leave". Mike, you remind me of the British monarchy circa 1776.

[cowtown]

OK Mike that was a lazy, snarky reply

I’ll try again

First, I don’t accept your premise that tickets sale keep going up for all of drum corps or that there is a spike in attendance post 2004. If you take attendance figures from all the drum corps shows in 1970, 1980 or 1989 to all the drum corps shows in 2006 – I’ll bet you, fewer people attended all drum corps shows in 2006. You are trying to equate spikes in attendance at the fewer, regional shows, with more big name corps as proof – really it’s a consolidation of fans to those specific shows but overall, historically, fewer fans see drum corps year round than they did in the past.

Secondly your premise is that you’ll allow attendance to define the medium. If that is the case, maybe the guard should perform naked, have live sex acts on the field, and the can have NASCAR races around the field. I hear their attendance is way up, people love fast cars.

Thirdly, DCI is marketing to band kids and part of that marketing is trying to be more accommodating, making drum corps like band at the expense of drum corps to appease what they consider their target market. I tend to think it’s rather dishonest. I think many of the corps are being used to market band programs and band circuits, that’s where the money and future is according to one rather ‘vocal’ proponent of change. I don’t like that the integrity of drum corps is being sacrificed as a sales tool for another medium.

Soccer is the worlds most popular sport yet it has failed to catch on in the largest money generating sports market, the US. Instead of pandering to the American market, changing the rules to make it more like American football, allowing full body hits, they instead maintain the integrity of the sport. and try other means. You often hear pro athletes take about respecting the game – DCI does not respect the game.

On a side note, last night 4 Hispanics ( a Columbian, 2 Mexicans and a Puerto Rican) were raiding my Ipod and came across my drum corps clips – they loved it and wanted copies. They love the volume and the horns –has DCI tried to market itself to the Hispanics community, one of the fastest growing, most brand-loyal demographic in the US? Have they exhausted their marketing options before changing the medium and rules? No, not really, never seen a corps play at half time during a soccer show, which has their season during the summer. Never seen a DCI flyer, ad in Spanish. Instead, they rather get muddled in a conflict of interest and use drum corps to make money with their band programs. No love, respect or maintaining integrity for the game there, just cashing a band buck – Maybe they should incorporate some WWF Smackdown into the shows then, have corps fight each other on the field after the show, WWF has great tickets sales. I can justify several changes to drum corps under the guise of chasing a buck but do I really want to? is that what Drum Corp is about, pandering to perceived markets at any cost? If so, drum corp has already failed

[MikeD]

Could you post a link for me with all the years finals attendences record?

Not interested in regional shows as the format has recently changed, just finals night – oh, and non-adjusted numbers too, the numbers they reported that year for that final

Oh, there was a finals list posted somewhere...if you want it find it.

However, overall show attendance is far more important than any single show, even finals.