What Would It Take?

[KeithHall]

I keep reading things like "Heat Wave was able to do it!"

Not a knock on them at all, but where are they now? I don't know the inner workings of their demise, but could it have had anything to do with the expense and time commitments of traveling 24hrs each way four or five times in a ten week period?

Joe, they are debt free! They are not around because of finances it has to do with membership as well as the reputation that they originally had (not through the current Management I might add).

[MJH]

From reading the multitude of threads over time about the attempt to nationalize DCA to a greater degree, it always seems to come down to expecting the Northeast "legacy" corps to knowingly reduce themselves or make their lives more diffcult in order to improve things for the "other" corps.

As an outsider...just one who goes to a DCA show or so most years as an audience member...

Why ever would a corps knowingly vote in something that is detrimental to their own well-being, so that someone else gets an advantage?

That's whay the gist of posts from those outisde the Northeast seems to expect, and personally, I don't see it happening.

Mike

You're absolutely right. No one in their right mind would agree to that. I'm just saying, wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to make it a competition on more even terms. Make it so the corps would all step off from the same place and not so much decided by who can afford the best designers or the most instructors.

I think it would be neat if corps "A" decided to spend more money on design but corps "B" decided better instruction would put them on top while corps "C" believes paying more for a horn or drum book would be the winning ingredient...

Sort of the rob Peter to pay Paul idea. Which one would win a championship? Of course, you'd have to have a judging system that rewarded all those aspects equally.

Back to the NFL comparison, Does a top notch QB make you a winner? or a tough defense? or a star running back? or great special teams? because you can't afford all those things at once.

[sixtysomething]

So here's my wacky suggestion...

1) All performance fees for DCA sanctioned shows go into a general fund. At finals, that fund is distributed to all corps participating in prelims. Distribution is based on the number of corps members per corps X number of miles traveled per corps / total number of members in participating corps.

2) Dues for corps members are averaged and made the same across DCA. One rate for all open class corps, a lower rate for class A corps.

3) That money sets the maximum ammount that can be spent on staff, designers, instructors, and techs.

4) Additional dues can be charged and fund raising activities taken on, but those monies must be earmarked for travel expenses, equipment, rehearsal space and other non-staff related costs.

This is just a shell of a frame of the begining of an idea. I know there are a lot of holes in my idea, but hey, we're throwing out some ideas, right? Make a better suggestion. Tell me why I'm wrong. Let's discuss!

I think you have the start of a good idea here. Not sure you could 'cap' what money went for instuction, especially if a corps is willing to fund raise the extra dough to pay for supposedly better talent.

But, there definitely should be some sort of minium travel budget for all corps. If the goal is to eventually get the big name NE corps to travel more, I think the Ohio show this year is step in the right direction. Not so far to move upstate NY corps or even one trip by a NJ or PA corps. If the show is financially successful for a couple of years (success being defined as break-even year one then more attendence, more gate receipts, more concessions, more local business sponsorship etc thereafter) the prize money can go up in a controlled manner to each venue (a slight twist on your common bucket theme) to help offset travel costs for ALL corps attending. This works for a few years, then it expands to the mid-west area or the south. Controlled growth with careful financial planning. Eventually it will expand across the country (or north of the border?).

The concerns posted by all those non-NE corps are truly justified, but also unfortunately just a matter of "the world as it is today" in DCA. As others have pointed out, I too have the utmost respect and admiration for those who put out a lot of money each year (individually and organizationally) to make the travel commitments needed to compete against the big name corps and attend DCA finals. You do it because you love drum & bugle corps and that's also why the issue is so passionate. There have been a couple of very thoughtful and rational posts in this thread, and perhaps with a few more we can all work together by bring new and sound ideas to the table. I'd like nothing better than to see DCA finals move around the country (and Canada if there's enough activity there). Who wouldn't want a DCA weekend in LA or San Fran? Heck, most of us NE'sters would combine it with some vacation time. Think of Cabs on the Beach - West!

Keep the good ideas flowing.

As for the irrational............and there are only a few.....accept it for what it is TODAY, get over it then start trying to make it work instead of complaining about it.

Oh and by the way, I figure it costs me about $7,000 year out of my own pocket and I travel a long way (as do others) to be involved in DCA. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it, but I willingly do this. So I know about costs and taking time off work etc. I don't whine about it. It is after all, my choice.

[CVQuesty]

certainly.

I estimate my rookie year total expenditures to be about that. I travelled 8 hours one way.

[audiodb]

From reading the multitude of threads over time about the attempt to nationalize DCA to a greater degree, it always seems to come down to expecting the Northeast "legacy" corps to knowingly reduce themselves or make their lives more diffcult in order to improve things for the "other" corps.

As an outsider...just one who goes to a DCA show or so most years as an audience member...

Why ever would a corps knowingly vote in something that is detrimental to their own well-being, so that someone else gets an advantage?

That's whay the gist of posts from those outisde the Northeast seems to expect, and personally, I don't see it happening.

Mike has a point.

This thread asks what it would take to get a NE corps to travel 1200 miles to a regular-season show. Why do we want anyone to have to travel 1200 miles to a regular-season show?

The only answer that strikes any chord with me is "to reciprocate". Well, there's no easy way to do this, so I'll just say it straight out - there will never be reciprocal travel on that scale in DCA. Forget the empty promises (if there were any, for that matter) - it will not happen. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we move on.

Perhaps it will help to note how things have improved. The whole idea of "reciprocation" came about when DCA began requiring Southern corps to make extra trips to the NE (i.e. championships plus at least one other show) to get DCA South established. But that insanity is passing. DCA no longer requires that. It is now possible for corps in other regions to stay in their region during the season, travel less, practice more, recruit more, promote their own shows more.

You want a show in the deep south with a strong lineup? Here's the easiest way to do it:

- invite CorpsVets

- 20 more members for MCL

- 30 more members for Frontier

- get Carolina Gold back in competition

Sure, it would be neat if the Hawthorne Caballeros were in your show lineup, too. And by all means, ask them what it would take to get them there. But you may find it easier to grow your own "big corps", rather than repeatedly importing them from other lands. Don't believe it? So far, I see four non-NE programs that have grown big corps, and none that have attracted a big NE corps to their home contest. Which really is easier, then?

[platypi25]

I mean, how would Bucs or Cabs score if they had to rely on volunteers or out-of-line staff to instruct/tech sections of their corps?

That seems like passing the buck a bit, to me. Do you really know how the instructional staffs for Cabs and Bucs work? I don't, but I do know that it isn't only the smaller non NE corps that have volunteers on their staff and concerns about finances. Attributing a corps success or lack thereof to its finances cheapens the activity. Championships are won with a combination of factors, and if you attribute it all to the staff, then why is anyone even marching?

-Sean McReady

Bushwackers Percussion Staff

Volunteer

[CVQuesty]

Which really is easier, then?

I think the issue then comes down to judging.

to get any kind of usable read (with finals being the end target), you really need to get a read /against/ Bucs/Cabs/Bush, etc.

Let's say we win a bunch of Southern shows with some sweet scores. Fine. Then we go NE and tank it good comapred the the previous year's top 4.

The only way to keep the judging community aware of not only your standing, but also your progress "in the mix" is to be seen several times against others in the top 10 so that the read and the comments are more accurate and can actually help you in the long run.

Hey, guys, I'm not saying any of this will ever happen, and it still remains to be seen how everything is going to shake out over the next few years. But as time goes on, equity is going to be an issue. Now, if CV, Frontier, Gold, GCS, MCL, Jackson, and Say... Masquerade were all powerful, large corps all scoring in the mid-80's in late July, then your argument holds... there's not as much of a reason to travel quite so much.

It's so much a chicken and the egg thing.

[gcsbaribc]

Hey, guys, I'm not saying any of this will ever happen, and it still remains to be seen how everything is going to shake out over the next few years. But as time goes on, equity is going to be an issue. Now, if CV, Frontier, Gold, GCS, MCL, Jackson, and Say... Masquerade were all powerful, large corps all scoring in the mid-80's in late July, then your argument holds... there's not as much of a reason to travel quite so much.

and what a beautiful day that will be.

This is what the future of the southern all-age circuit could be/has to be, with the addition of perhaps 3+ more groups (in the works).

The future is bright, and the sky is not the limit to our activity.

[CVQuesty]

word.

[Dale Bari]

You're absolutely right. No one in their right mind would agree to that. I'm just saying, wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to make it a competition on more even terms. Make it so the corps would all step off from the same place and not so much decided by who can afford the best designers or the most instructors.

[snip]

Back to the NFL comparison, Does a top notch QB make you a winner? or a tough defense? or a star running back? or great special teams? because you can't afford all those things at once.

The NFL is an extreme comparison in this case. It is the best example of socialism extant in this country. ("From each according to his gifts, to each according to his needs.") All monies earned through merchandise and television contracts are shared equally. All expenditures on salaries are capped - except for maybe signing bonuses. Every team plays in 16 contests, according to a pre-set schedule based upon last season's placement. Even though there are 30 teams, it is the closest thing to "one for all and all for one" in any sporting or entertainment endeavor. The league has excelled in marketing because it is truly one product, not 30 individual ones. While he's not quite the equal of his MLB counterpart in terms of absolute authority, the NFL Commissioner wields quite the large hammer.

If this is the way some people want to go, need I remind them that we have DCA (and DCI) in the first place exactly because each individual corps wanted to be free to determine its own destiny, not to submit to an all-powerful authority. MikeD is right (gasp! Did I just say that?!): Why, exactly would a corps operating in this more free (dare I say, "capitalist") environment vote to constrain itself thus?

DCA has given the regions some autonomy to meet local requirements. It has offered reasonable and objective criteria for sanctioning a contest as DCA-approved, thereby giving all corps a chance eventually to achieve membership, regardless from whence they hail. The rest is up to the local corps and its region.

IMHO, that's as centralized as it should get. If there's not enough interest to create and maintain a corps, then it just wasn't meant to be. If the existing corps, through their region, have done their utmost to stimulate corps growth - and it still isn't enough, then it wasn't meant to be either. Having a show and inviting every DCA corps to it is a wonderful notion. Requiring them to attend is not so wonderful; in fact, it is tantamount to tyranny.

Local conditions are what they are - a corps will thrive there if a workable plan can be enacted, and will not if no such plan can be found. Forcing the Hawthorne Caballeros to guest-star at a show in East Podunk, Missouri, will not appreciably change the conditions on the ground there so that a new corps will magically appear within a 50-mile radius. And, deploying the entire array of current NE corps into another region, like parachuting the 101st Airborne into Baghdad, will not work any better at shoring up the currently struggling corps.

If you're looking for an analogy for DCA, I'd say the NHL is a little more realistic - but only in the sense that the league expanded by 100% (from 6 to 12) in one year (1967), and it took 40 years for a team from Southern California to win the Stanley Cup, by which time the league had expanded to 30 teams. The old AFL teams took quite a few years to achieve parity with the old NFL teams after the merger. It will take newer corps a while to make the DCA climb.

For 25 years (1965 to 1990), all the DCA champions hailed along a 200-mile line from Reading, PA, to Connecticut. We in the "Western" corps (Westshore, Statesmen, Cru, Steel City, Minnesota, etc.) despaired of ever prying the trophy away from that cadre. Well, Statesmen finally broke through in 1991. And, in the 17 years since, the trophy has returned to that 200-mile line only 6 more times.

You can think about it in these terms too: Since 1972, DCI has had eight different champions: BD, SCV, Kingsmen, Star, Cavies, PR, Madison and Cadets. Three of them only won once (and PR was only a tie.) Only six of them still exist. BD and SCV are practically next-door neighbors; likewise Cavies, Phantom, and Madison. Can anyone realistically argue that DCI should limit those six to make it more fair for the rest of DCI?

The growth that has happened in DCA recently is nothing short of amazing. But, it was the sweat of many people in individual corps working in isolation that pulled that off, not imposing arbitrary limits on the prior existing corps. I'm not saying that anyone starting up a new corps, or working to continue developing a recent start-up, doesn't deserve help. But, asking the more established corps to hobble themselves to allow others to catch up is not only unrealistic, it's anti-competitive. And, I think that runs against the grain for virtually everyone here.

To get back to Keith's original point: What would it take to get big-time corps (from wherever) to show up in Sarasota? in my estimation, a good reason to do so - whatever that may be, and it might be different for every attending corps.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Dale Bari