Cadets v Phantom

[Rocketman]

well, i'll try to answer your question without stirring the pot. when i say 21st century, i don't mean playing music written in the 21st century. think of it this way,

1. when was the last time you saw a regiment show and said to yourself "wow, that's never been done before."

2. if you took the 2006 regiment show and implanted it into 1993, it would fit in perfectly. but if you put in say 2001 scv, 2000 cavaliers, or 2000+ cadets into 1993, people would freak out because it's too "progressive" (similar to how people reacted to star....it was ahead of it's time). personally, when i watch any 2000+ PR show, i feel like i am watching a show from the early 90's. the visual design is all stock charts that have been done for 15 years. the tempos are VERY 1990's.

3. phantom's shows seem to have the attitude of "here is our music. oh yeah there's some drill behind it." the two just don't seem to complement each other. most people are right. you can get the full effect of phantom's shows by listening to the CD's. and no, you cannot get the full effect of a rosemont, scv, or cadets show on CD. but this is drum corps international, not symphony and orchestra international.

now on the other side of it, phantom has done some amazing things for the activity, and i applaud the organization and it's marching members.

hope that helps

I know it helps me. It shows me that you have no clue. Why should the Regiment do what everyone else is doing? Where's the originality in that? Anyone can play two bars of music and take a 90 second drum break while marching at breakneck speed. We know this because everyone EXCEPT the Regiment does it. If the day were to come when they sacrifice music (not just notes) for the sake of some visual "moment," that will truely signal the end of the world.

You bag, yet you complement. This tells me you really don't know what you want them to do. If they were to go "Cavalier" on us, I imagine you'd be leading the mob saying, "they're just copying Cavaliers," which, it sounds like, you want them to do. As for originality of design, just how many years have the Cavaliers done "Variations on a box form?" You see, it works both ways.

I like what the Cavaliers do, for the most part. Do I want to see 12 Cavaliers in finals? No. There is room for the Cavaliers, the Bostons, the Regiment, and they all do what they do. Some we like, some we don't. You speak of the Regiments' "cookie cutter" visual programs. What's the difference between that and the "rinse and repeat" shows most of the corps do today? The only real difference is music (when you can actually recognize it).

Ya know, I just ranted, and I don't like it. If you don't like what the Regiment does, take a freaking bathroom break when they come on!

RM - <**>

ampssuck

Edited June 27, 2007 by Rocketman

[euponitone]

I know it helps me. It shows me that you have no clue. Why should the Regiment do what everyone else is doing? Where's the originality in that? Anyone can play two bars of music and take a 90 second drum break while marching at breakneck speed. We know this because everyone EXCEPT the Regiment does it. If the day were to come when they sacrifice music (not just notes) for the sake of some visual "moment," that will truely signal the end of the world.

You know, as much as I like regiment, and most of their fans, you lose a little credibility when you lump everyone but regiment into the "8 beats of playing / 90 bars of drum break crowd". I liked PR's show last year more than almost anyone in the top 12 because they did march their ###es off while playing great music, but that doesnt mean that everyone else is taking the cheap way out. The fact is that there is no black and white in the world or drum corps - regiment waters their parts and takes drum breaks in key spots like the rest of them. They may do it more tastefully (in my opinion as well as yours obviously) than most corps, but they still do it. Last year they did it so well that they almost won. I honestly thought their demand last year (the combined marching and playing) was as hard or harder than anyone's right up their with scv and cadets (excluding the middle section)...so theyre on the right track. They've also made themselves my logical choice for new favorite corps because of it (once Hop takes the cadets and forms his own summer band cicuit in 7 years or so)

Edited June 27, 2007 by euponitone

[The Nagging Cough!]

Actually, Phantom Regiment is the black and white of drum corps, if we're going by their uniforms, of course. Who needs visual demand in head-to-toe white, anyway?

[The Tsar]

well, i'll try to answer your question without stirring the pot. when i say 21st century, i don't mean playing music written in the 21st century. think of it this way,

1. when was the last time you saw a regiment show and said to yourself "wow, that's never been done before."

2. if you took the 2006 regiment show and implanted it into 1993, it would fit in perfectly. but if you put in say 2001 scv, 2000 cavaliers, or 2000+ cadets into 1993, people would freak out because it's too "progressive" (similar to how people reacted to star....it was ahead of it's time). personally, when i watch any 2000+ PR show, i feel like i am watching a show from the early 90's. the visual design is all stock charts that have been done for 15 years. the tempos are VERY 1990's.

3. phantom's shows seem to have the attitude of "here is our music. oh yeah there's some drill behind it." the two just don't seem to complement each other. most people are right. you can get the full effect of phantom's shows by listening to the CD's. and no, you cannot get the full effect of a rosemont, scv, or cadets show on CD. but this is drum corps international, not symphony and orchestra international.

now on the other side of it, phantom has done some amazing things for the activity, and i applaud the organization and it's marching members.

After reading your post, I had to walk away from DCP for a while. Good thing that I had some errands to run.

My first instinct was to completely blast you for what you said. It isn't often that I run across a post that smack of such....disrespect for an entire organization. Because frankly, that is exactly what was conveyed. You reduced the hard work of hundreds upon hundreds of young men and women to nothing but some careless remarks. However, my first instinct was nothing but a surge of anger...the only way I could have "retaliated" would have been to try to marginalize the corps that you are a fan of...and I cannot do that. I have a lot of respect for Jeff and Mike and the Cavaliers.

Needless to say, I disagree with almost everything you said, though I know that a LOT of current and recent Cavaliers fans and former members feel the same way. And why shouldn't you? You've been very, VERY successful for the last decade. This sort of success has -I feel- bred some contempt for other corps and their method of producing shows. Two years ago I recall someone (hornstar, maybe) talking down to us about show design and how the Cavaliers are heads-and-shoulders above everyone else...which was strange, considering the Cavaliers did not win the title that year. But I digress. When was the last time I saw a Regiment show and said "That's never been done?"

Last year.

The trumpets to baritones switch. Not to mention that the Corigliano piano concerto had never been done on the field. The Ave Maria had not been done on the field either, I believe. Do you feel that the 2004 Cavaliers show would be "out of place" in 1993? Do you feel that the 2000 Cavaliers show would be "out of place?" I don't believe so...does that make them "retro?" Does that make them not worthy? I don't believe that you've been paying attention if you think that the 2006 show tempos were very "1990s" (whatever the heck that means). Off the top of my head, I think that Regiment might have marched faster tempos than Cavaliers last year, though I can't be certain, as I have not watched the Cavaliers show since last year.

Your post fairly drips of condescension and superiority....but you know what? I don't think it was malicious. Not at all, I don't think you meant it to come across the way it did. And that is probably the worst part of it. So...it is with a little sadness that I must simply "grin and bear it," because there isn't anything I can really say or do without making my corps and myself look bad. I have for some time now felt a sort of....smug superiority that certain FMMers and fans exhibit regarding every facet of drum corps...and I suppose you are entitled to it. It took a long time for the Cavaliers to win a DCI title, and certainly one could say that they have "owned" DCI in the 2000s. But these sorts of things are cyclical, I feel, and the day will come when Regiment has success while Cavaliers suffer some difficult years. If DCI last long enough, that is.

In any case, I am sorry you feel the way you do, but...I think you are wrong. We'll have to agree to disagree. Such is life.

[Marlin Hunter]

After reading your post, I had to walk away from DCP for a while. Good thing that I had some errands to run.

My first instinct was to completely blast you for what you said. It isn't often that I run across a post that smack of such....disrespect for an entire organization. Because frankly, that is exactly what was conveyed. You reduced the hard work of hundreds upon hundreds of young men and women to nothing but some careless remarks. However, my first instinct was nothing but a surge of anger...the only way I could have "retaliated" would have been to try to marginalize the corps that you are a fan of...and I cannot do that. I have a lot of respect for Jeff and Mike and the Cavaliers.

Needless to say, I disagree with almost everything you said, though I know that a LOT of current and recent Cavaliers fans and former members feel the same way. And why shouldn't you? You've been very, VERY successful for the last decade. This sort of success has -I feel- bred some contempt for other corps and their method of producing shows. Two years ago I recall someone (hornstar, maybe) talking down to us about show design and how the Cavaliers are heads-and-shoulders above everyone else...which was strange, considering the Cavaliers did not win the title that year. But I digress. When was the last time I saw a Regiment show and said "That's never been done?"

Last year.

The trumpets to baritones switch. Not to mention that the Corigliano piano concerto had never been done on the field. The Ave Maria had not been done on the field either, I believe. Do you feel that the 2004 Cavaliers show would be "out of place" in 1993? Do you feel that the 2000 Cavaliers show would be "out of place?" I don't believe so...does that make them "retro?" Does that make them not worthy? I don't believe that you've been paying attention if you think that the 2006 show tempos were very "1990s" (whatever the heck that means). Off the top of my head, I think that Regiment might have marched faster tempos than Cavaliers last year, though I can't be certain, as I have not watched the Cavaliers show since last year.

Your post fairly drips of condescension and superiority....but you know what? I don't think it was malicious. Not at all, I don't think you meant it to come across the way it did. And that is probably the worst part of it. So...it is with a little sadness that I must simply "grin and bear it," because there isn't anything I can really say or do without making my corps and myself look bad. I have for some time now felt a sort of....smug superiority that certain FMMers and fans exhibit regarding every facet of drum corps...and I suppose you are entitled to it. It took a long time for the Cavaliers to win a DCI title, and certainly one could say that they have "owned" DCI in the 2000s. But these sorts of things are cyclical, I feel, and the day will come when Regiment has success while Cavaliers suffer some difficult years. If DCI last long enough, that is.

In any case, I am sorry you feel the way you do, but...I think you are wrong. We'll have to agree to disagree. Such is life.

maybe it did come across the wrong way, as i was typing the post in between a lot of work. i really don't want to discuss that issue anymore. i just want to know why you keep insisting that it's a phantom vs. cavaliers thing. actually, The Cadets is the first corps that i will reference to in regards to '21st century' style drum corps. i know there's some animosity for rosemont up there in rockford, but i never once made this out to be about those two corps. my belief is that, with regards to modern design, there are three groups:

1. BD, SCV, Cavaliers, Cadets

2. Coats, PR, G-Men, Boston, Crown, Madison

3. everyone else

and i NEVER made an attack on marching members. i was once one and would never disrespect anyone who did what i did. but you see in football, if the head coach and his staff are not cutting the mustard, they get FIRED. i don't know why that principle doesn't apply in drum corps. it's okay for a member to say to himself "man we've got a couple of IDIOTS on staff this year. i hope they fix that so we can do better."

and no reason to get that mad. its just a discussion bro. it's not life or death. let me buy you a beer

Edited June 28, 2007 by Marlin Hunter

[The Tsar]

i just want to know why you keep insisting that it's a phantom vs. cavaliers thing.

Simply because of where I believe your allegiances to lie, no other reason. Like I've said before, I have respect for the Cavaliers organization. I have a ton of respect for both Jeff Fiedler and Mike Gaines. I'm not "insisting" that it is a PR vs Cavaliers thing, it's merely that you were discussing styles...and obviously, Cavaliers have created a new style and show aesthetic that has more than a tad successful these past few years, so when you say Regiment is still performing as in a 1990s style, then the only thing I can compare it to is Cavaliers, really....I can't compare it to Cadets, because they've used narration, amplified voice, etc. That sets them a tad apart from both Cavaliers and Regiment. Plop some of those shows into 1993 and there'd be riots. But you said that plopping the 2006 Regiment show into 1993 would not cause any waves...and I simply countered that at least two of the Cavaliers' championship years could also be plopped into 1993 without a problem. Certainly, I don't find the 2000 and 2004 shows to be as polarizing as Star 1993, do you?

actually, The Cadets is the first corps that i will reference to in regards to '21st century' style drum corps.

Well, that's for darn tootin' sure. More like 22nd century. :P

i know there's some animosity for rosemont up there in rockford, but i never once made this out to be about those two corps.

No more so than the animosity found for Rockford down there in Rosemont. The big difference is...the Cavaliers have been uber-successful, and essentially have "room to talk." Whereas Regiment has -until lately- been struggling, and really can't say "peep."

my belief is that, with regards to modern design, there are three groups:

1. BD, SCV, Cavaliers, Cadets

2. Coats, PR, G-Men, Boston, Crown, Madison

3. everyone else

I'm not entirely sure I would agree with you. I don't see how Blue Devils fit into that category. They have nearly flawless performance technique, to be sure, but what is it about their shows that puts them "up there" with modern design? Do you really feel that the Godfather show was a more "21st Century" design than the 2006 Faust show? Take the 2006 Blue Devils and plop it in 1993 (minus narration) and I think they would have been very successful.

and no reason to get that mad. its just a discussion bro. it's not life or death

And I never made it out to be life or death, please don't exaggerate, it weakens the debate. However, if I were to show contempt and disdain for the way that the Cavaliers do things, people would be coming out of the woodwork to defend them and lambast me...and they'd be right in doing so! After all, aren't we all proud alumni? If we didn't care for the organizations that molded us, we would hardly be spending time on an internet forum, would we? I mean, two years ago when I said something that was taken as an insult to the Cavaliers (it was not), I had former Cavaliers crawling all over me on the forums and one even threatened me with physical violence via PM. (By the way, I saw that dude at the Atlanta show last year, and I stood right in front of him and introduced myself. I said "so, we throwing down or what?" He laughed nervously and walked away. You're never as anonymous as you think you are, I said to him). But I digress.

In any case, you've clarified your stance and said your piece, I've clarified mine and said my piece....i guess there is nothing left to discuss. You love yours, I love mine....and the world will somehow find a way to keep on a'revolving. :) (Beer accepted.)

Edit: Ugh...can one of the mods perhaps help out with the quotes? I hate it when it does this.

<edited to fix quote tags> MS

Edited June 28, 2007 by Matt

[Matt_S]

Edit: Ugh...can one of the mods perhaps help out with the quotes? I hate it when it does this.

Glad to help. :)

[Marlin Hunter]

hey Tsar! check out my sig......it's just for you!!

[The Tsar]

hey Tsar! check out my sig......it's just for you!!

Dude, the beer would have been enough.

(Although I would prefer a nice Gin and Tonic, perhaps with some good old fashioned Boodles)

[Marlin Hunter]

alright you can have your G&T, but we drink rum down here on the coast