DCI's new "angle" defending Lucas....."ask the judg

[deftguy]

To be fair, the bolded part above is actually true. If you think about it, the longer an echo bounces around, the longer it'll take to get to the listener, so the sound that takes the least time is the one that doesn't bounce at all. The first sound you hear is the true sound, and the key is to ignore the sounds after it. It's the same in every indoor environment, and something that the pit has to grapple with whenever they're listening back to the battery (generally only the section leader will have to do that). I can't speak for how well this works for listening to brass, but it's definitely possible with percussion, it's just tough.

Sound moves in all directions not just one. The only way you are going to get a non reflected sound is if the corps was actually marching in air, and you were suspended directly in front of them. The turf reflects sound, and that sound bounces in many directions after the initial first reflection. Our ears cannot seperate the reflections from the direct sound, sitting in the stands it is all one combined "event" to the ears. The brass line plays extended chords at some point, and these extended notes become a combination of direct and reflected sound to the ears. A judge on the field is hearing a significantly different sound than the judges in the stands or booth. A fan seated in the higher section of the stadium are going to hear much more reflected sound than those that sit in the first row at field level. You are going to have various differences in sound between these two extremes. Percussion instruments have the benefit of having the least amount of steady state tones, the brass does not have that option. While I believe you can tailor your program for your venue only when you have had quite a bit of access to it to evalute how would impose changes to your program. But it argues against the point that show designers want fewer limitations, and more opportunites to create different kinds of shows. In this case, you will be forced to "homogonize" your sound to fit the acoustics of a venue. I cannot see how that will be a plus for either the show designers, or the fans.

[garfield]

Nobody is complaining about the "first sound" theory (all crap). It's the second and third sounds you CAN'T hear because of the reverb from the first sound that causes the muddy sound. If the whole corps played a single quarter note then the reverb wouldn't matter. Multiple attacks? Forget it. It's lost in the reverb.

I'd like to hear what comes after the "first sound", too, you know.

[chaos001]

that'll look good with 150 people

you must've missed a post from a week or so ago about the conspiracy to merge DCI/BOA/WGI together. Lance can fill you in.

[bobjacobs]

I have a few tidbits to add to the discussion. I regret not checking in more frequently.

– I take personal responsibility for the "Ask the judges angle" article which is the subject of this thread. Reading through it today after not having read it in a few weeks, I can understand why so many people thought this to be nothing more than a feeble attempt at spinning the LOS story to seem like "there's nothing to see here folks... move along now... return to your homes." That was not the intent, and I personally apologize to those who frequent DCP who felt like their intelligence was being insulted by the publication of the story.

– The article was written about two months ago, when we were processing the post-championship input we'd received from various stakeholders... and we felt that the point of view of the judges was an important one to include. The gentlemen who were kind enough to offer their opinion were asked during interviews to talk about judging within LOS and the net effect that the building had on the adjudication process. It really was as innocent as that. My error, perhaps, was in not being more judicious in explaining this context, thus creating the perception that the intent was to deflect attention away from the issue of maximizing the environment within LOS and providing an insight into the undertaking necessary to do so.

– Besides the "in-house" brainpower of DCI staff members, judges, instructors, corps directors, stadium management, City officials and other resources including folks Frank Dorritie who have an intimate knowledge of the unique considerations of drum corps activity while also possessing a deep understanding of the world of sound and audio, we're also engaged in due diligence with people who actually make their living in the fields of acoustical engineering, sound isolation, sound reinforcement, and other "scientific and technical" disciplines related to the matters at hand. The perception among some that DCI "isn't taking this seriously enough" or "isn't asking the right people" is inaccurate. We will be happy to share additional information when it is appropriate to do so.

– On the topic of ticket sales, a few quick bullet points: Friends of DCI memberships for 2010 have already surpassed 2009 totals. This fact is not intended in any way as a justification for the preservation of status quo, but is being stated here solely for the purpose of addressing those who are curious about the current status of those paying the most for championships week tickets. Ticket sales for other seating areas have also gotten off to a surprisingly brisk start as well. (For those interested, the DCI Eastern Classic in Allentown is also tracking ahead of last year's pace.)

– DCI's ticketing manager continues to work diligently and methodically with ticket purchasers to address specific concerns and location preferences, taking advantage of lessons learned in LOS and other stadiums last year.

– We're working hard to grow the audience at every show. Some of the new and re-tooled programs we're implementing are evident through their visibility on DCI.org and through our e-mail outreach. Others may be less visible, as they focus on student groups, strategic partnerships, educational events, community engagement, etc. The overall goal of the ticket sales effort is to give corps members the opportunity to perform in front of the largest possible audience at every stop along the tour.

The focused public relations outreach on the specific topic of the sound quality at LOS is but one part of the much larger effort to change the way communication is handled between the Drum Corps International collective of corps and the community of fans which support it. We're honestly trying to change the status quo, and to get things moving in a different direction. The creation of the "DCI Direct" column in DCP is another manifestation of that effort, and I thank John Donovan for sharing the desire to provide information to those who are among the most loyal fans of DCI corps. There are other opportunities being developed, which we think will be interesting, informative and possibly even entertaining.

We hope to continue to expand our opportunities to this end.

Feel free to drop me a note or PM with any questions, comments or concerns. I'll do my best to reply quickly.

Thanks for your consideration and HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

Bob

[deftguy]

Nobody is complaining about the "first sound" theory (all crap). It's the second and third sounds you CAN'T hear because of the reverb from the first sound that causes the muddy sound. If the whole corps played a single quarter note then the reverb wouldn't matter. Multiple attacks? Forget it. It's lost in the reverb.

I'd like to hear what comes after the "first sound", too, you know.

First sound theory is not crap, it is science that can be/and has been proven. Secondly, there is no second or third sound, it is called a different event alltogether. A second and third sound is known as a reflection. Every note seperated by air and time is a new event. Regardless of the details, the use of the word muddy is a consequence of a long bass reverberation time, and curtains are not going to change that dynamic on bit.

[garfield]

First sound theory is not crap, it is science that can be/and has been proven. Secondly, there is no second or third sound, it is called a different event alltogether. A second and third sound is known as a reflection. Every note seperated by air and time is a new event. Regardless of the details, the use of the word muddy is a consequence of a long bass reverberation time, and curtains are not going to change that dynamic on bit.

I obviously was not clear in my comment. The idea of a "first sound" reverbing to a second and third sound is audible and I grant it has been proven. But how is it possible to focus on the second attack, or the second beat of a measure of drum solo, when the reverb from the "first sound" attack is wafting around the stadium.

Multiply that by the multiple attacks of different lines throughout a piece of music and you end up with mud. The science may be sound and proven, but my ears don't lie either. And for proof just listen to the doctored CDs and remember that I didn't have an audio board connected to my brain as I was listening live.

[garfield]

I have a few tidbits to add to the discussion. I regret not checking in more frequently.

– Besides the "in-house" brainpower of DCI staff members, judges, instructors, corps directors, stadium management, City officials and other resources including folks Frank Dorritie who have an intimate knowledge of the unique considerations of drum corps activity while also possessing a deep understanding of the world of sound and audio, we're also engaged in due diligence with people who actually make their living in the fields of acoustical engineering, sound isolation, sound reinforcement, and other "scientific and technical" disciplines related to the matters at hand. The perception among some that DCI "isn't taking this seriously enough" or "isn't asking the right people" is inaccurate. We will be happy to share additional information when it is appropriate to do so.

– On the topic of ticket sales, a few quick bullet points: Friends of DCI memberships for 2010 have already surpassed 2009 totals. This fact is not intended in any way as a justification for the preservation of status quo, but is being stated here solely for the purpose of addressing those who are curious about the current status of those paying the most for championships week tickets. Ticket sales for other seating areas have also gotten off to a surprisingly brisk start as well. (For those interested, the DCI Eastern Classic in Allentown is also tracking ahead of last year's pace.)

This is the first "meat" to expand on the "...we're working on it..." initial reply. I'd only ask that you substitute "...as we make our decisions..." for "...when it's appropriate...", partly to help the DC community feel a part of the process (that we pay for) and so fans can make plans without worry that you might announce something later because it was appropriate to keep the info private to suit DCI's needs (for ticket sales, etc). If there is any hope of conducting a special fundraiser to pay for sound improvements its success will be based on fans feeling part of the process.

The advance Friends and ticket sales pretty much blows the idea that their new efforts ("M.O." - credit Cow) are because ticket sales are down.

Thanks again, Bob, for your input here. Any tidbits you can bring about the results of your due diligence, and what the pros say can fix the problem, will be music to our ears (pun intended).

[perc2100]

I have a few tidbits to add to the discussion. I regret not checking in more frequently.

** SNIP **

Mr. Jacobs,

Thank you for continuing to participate in professional, educated, honest discussion. As a drum corps alumni and fan, I appreciate hearing about the state of our activity from those at a better vantage point than my own. It's always refreshing to get people on who in-the-know who don't mind going on the record on DCP.

I'm glad to hear that not only is DCI seriously looking into improving fans' Championship experience, but also that DCI ticket sales are not plummeting (as some naysayers seem to like to postulate).

I look forward to your continued participation in the discussion.

[deftguy]

I obviously was not clear in my comment. The idea of a "first sound" reverbing to a second and third sound is audible and I grant it has been proven. But how is it possible to focus on the second attack, or the second beat of a measure of drum solo, when the reverb from the "first sound" attack is wafting around the stadium.

This is why you cannot ignore the second or third reflections, or seperate the initial notes from subsequent ones in reverberant spaces. We just do not have those kinds of highly selective filters in our hearing machanism

Multiply that by the multiple attacks of different lines throughout a piece of music and you end up with mud. The science may be sound and proven, but my ears don't lie either. And for proof just listen to the doctored CDs and remember that I didn't have an audio board connected to my brain as I was listening live.

Ears don't lie, but they can be fooled. There is a HRT(head related transfer) distortion that can occur where a sound originating from the rear is perceived as coming from the front. Or sounds coming from above are percieved as coming from everywhere.

Be real careful with the use of the word "doctored". I have read no evidence that doctoring has occured on the CD's. You know, you can record an event without recording the "room" the event was done in. It is called careful choice of microphones, and microphone placement.

[perc2100]

If there is any hope of conducting a special fundraiser to pay for sound improvements its success will be based on fans feeling part of the process.

Heh. I would LOVE for DCI to conduct a special fundraiser asking people to help contribute to improving the sound of Championships at LOS. I'd be very interested to see if people would put their money where their mouth is in regards to helping to improve the situation, or if people would have a "I pay for tickets that's enough, but I'm not paying for tickets next year" and continue to complain.

Seems to me like DCI is on the right track. Imagine that: they might know what they're doing