Madison Scouts vs. CCrown

[NR_Ohiobando]

I’m trying to avoid posting on DCP this summer, but I figured this would be a nice piece of info for everyone. Someone did this last year too, so I thought it would be interesting to do it again

One of the things I noticed right away about Madison’s show this year is that they move and play A LOT, while maintaining very fast tempos. I decided to back up my claim with actual statistics and compare that against top scoring corps, in this case, CCrown as of 7/9/09

Note: The tempos are somewhat estimated; my metronome doesn’t have every single tempo on it, it goes up by chunks. Example: 172 to 176, 200 to 208 (no 201-207). I’d say the tempos are at most 3 clicks off what I say.

Also, when I say "tempo" I am dealing with how fast the feet are moving.

( * indicates playing while moving)

Scroll down to the bottom to see the full results

Madison Scouts: using the Denver FanNetwork Video from 7/11/09

(only dealing with tempos above 160 while moving)

Tempo = 190ish

:28 to :52 --- 24* seconds

:55-1:20 --- 25* seconds

1:28-1:34 --- 6* (etc.)

Tempo = 170ish

1:52-2:20 --- 28*

2:22-2:34 --- 12*

2:37-2:43 --- 6*

Tempo = 180ish

2:47-2:53 --- 6

3:05-3:09 --- 5

3:10-3:38 --- 28*

Tempo = 184+

3:40-3:47 --- 7

3:48-3:59 --- 11*

--

Tempo = 180ish

4:09-4:16 --- 7

4:19-24 --- 5

4:27-31 --- 4

4:31-4:42 --- 11*

4:45-49 --- 4

4:49-4:52 --- 3*

4:55-5:06 --- 11*

5:11-49 --- 39*

Tempo = 200ish

6:10-14 --- 4 (trumpet trio)

6:14-22 --- 8*

--

Tempo = 168ish

6:30-6:41 --- 11

Tempo = 160ish

6:41-7:34 --- 53* (includes ritardandos)

7:42-8:00 --- 18*

--

Tempo = 190ish

8:08-23 --- 15*

8:28-51 --- 23*

8:57-9:40 --- 43

9:41-50 --- 9*

Tempo =160ish

10:16-25 --- 9*

Tempo = 190ish

10:47-11:15 --- 28*

CCrown using the 6/9/09 Columbia FanNetwork video.

only dealing with tempos above 160 while moving

Tempo = 190ish

2:16-58 --- 42 seconds

3:01-39 --- 38 (play at halftime & normal time)*

3:45-4:14 --- 29*

Tempo = 176ish

6:57-7:24 --- 27 (only members who are halted play)

Tempo = 190ish

7:29-45 --- 16*

7:47-56 --- 9*

Tempo = 200ish+

8:00-12 --- 12

8:12-23 --- 11*]

8:24-33 --- 9*

Tempo = 160ish

9:31-34 --- 3*

Tempo = 170ish

11:08-18 --- 10

11:27-36 --- 9*

11:40-47 --- 7*

11:49-57 --- 8*

12:01-06 --- 5*

Tempo = 190ish

12:06-30 --- 24*

12:39-55 --- 16

Madison Scouts: using the Denver FanNetwork Video from 7/11/09

Time spent 160ish+ while moving: 464 seconds, about 7:44 of the show.

Time spent 160ish+ while moving and *playing: 367 seconds, about 6:07 of the show.

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 185 seconds, about 3:05 of the show

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 138 seconds, about 2:18 of the show

CCrown using the 6/9/09 Columbia FanNetwork video.

Time spent 160ish+ while moving: 275 seconds or 4:35

Time spent 160ish+ moving and *playing: 184 seconds or 3:04 seconds.

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 206 seconds or 3:26

Time spent 190ish+ moving and *playing: 136 seconds or 2:16

(While not part of this info it's also notable that CCrown has several large sections of their show around Tempo=70-80, and stops to a halt almost every time a double tonguing section takes place.)

Interesting to say the least. I am not trying to say CCrown is a bunch of sissies. I am saying that Madison has a hell of a show on their hands, difficulty-wise. (this has very little to do with their visual GE program). I am also saying that you can design shows "more intelligently" and still have it be incredibly exciting for the audience.

Also: If Madison can clean up their act and get into Finals then more power to them, I just think the challenge is really big.

Edited July 14, 2009 by NR_Ohiobando

[dbc03]

Now if only they did it as well or effectively as Crown.

[trumpetcam]

Just shows that how much you move and play and how difficult it is has NOTHING to do with how the judges view the show long term in today's DCI.

I can't even count on my hands the number of top 5 corps that have done shows where the hornlines played 6 or 7 minutes total. It's a shame, but today it's called "smart" programming. It goes against everything musicwise that DCI used to stand for, but its reality. It's too bad.

Great data BTW. I used to do this with the CD's in college and would and add up the amount of time the hornlines played down the top 12. VERY telling..

Edited July 14, 2009 by trumpetcam

[Hrothgar15]

What conclusion did you reach from these data? It's as if you didn't finish the post. Are you saying Crown moves less on average? Moves and plays less on average? What are you trying to say?

[Dash Fieldpaint]

Madison Scouts: using the Denver FanNetwork Video from 7/11/09

Time spent 160ish+ while moving: 464 seconds, about 7:44 of the show.

Time spent 160ish+ while moving and *playing: 367 seconds, about 6:07 of the show.

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 185 seconds, about 3:05 of the show

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 138 seconds, about 2:18 of the show

CCrown using the 6/9/09 Columbia FanNetwork video.

Time spent 160ish+ while moving: 275 seconds or 4:35

Time spent 160ish+ moving and *playing: 184 seconds or 3:04 seconds.

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 206 seconds or 3:26

Time spent 190ish+ moving and *playing: 136 seconds or 2:16

ye ol' ninja edit

nevermind, carry on

Edited July 14, 2009 by Dash Fieldpaint

[Tone Quality Matters]

What conclusion did you reach from these data? It's as if you didn't finish the post. Are you saying Crown moves less on average? Moves and plays less on average? What are you trying to say?

Look at his top twelve picks at the bottom of his signature, and you will understand the reasoning to use Crown in his analysis.

[sydstranda]

What conclusion did you reach from these data? It's as if you didn't finish the post. Are you saying Crown moves less on average? Moves and plays less on average? What are you trying to say?

Huh? Read the summation, it's very clear.

Edited July 14, 2009 by sydstranda

[sydstranda]

Thanks for this data, very interesting.

There has been a lot of bellyaching about Madison's show this year, especially about dirty guard and footwork.

Some of the vets keep pointing out that the show is really difficult, and as soon as Madison gets it cleaned up, they will be moving up the ranks.

I think we are already seeing the opposite effect with Crown, for example, and there is some concern about them peaking early.

Last year it seemed like the Cavies hardly played at all, and when they did it wasn't very complicated music, but oh the footwork, right?

I'm not knocking Crown or Cavies or anybody - different strokes for different folks.

Personally, I would rather see and hear a really intense show like Madison's (for example), even if it's kinda sloppy, then to see a simple production executed flawlessly.

That's just my opinion though.

[Dash Fieldpaint]

ninja edit, nevermind, I see now...

Edited July 14, 2009 by Dash Fieldpaint

[Medeabrass]

Just shows that how much you move and play and how difficult it is has NOTHING to do with how the judges view the show long term in today's DCI.

I can't even count on my hands the number of top 5 corps that have done shows where the hornlines played 6 or 7 minutes total. It's a shame, but today it's called "smart" programming. It goes against everything musicwise that DCI used to stand for, but its reality. It's too bad.

Great data BTW. I used to do this with the CD's in college and would and add up the amount of time the hornlines played down the top 12. VERY telling..

Thx to OP...I agree with quote above. I really wish that executing difficult passages WHILE marching would be rewarded more. I think this is a trend that started in the early 2000's with the wave of Cavalier dominance. I could be wrong but it seemed to me that Cavies would stop quite a bit to play their difficult parts. I think other corps followed suit when they realized that there's no benefit (score wise) to playing difficult parts on the run.

I don't think the tide will be turned in this area until a corps with big brass ones decides that they can do both WHILE executing at an extremely high level. Then the judges will be forced to take into account the demand if corps "A" plays a lick extremely clean standing still while corps "B" is performing an equally difficult lick on the move. If this scenario were to play itself out, I think the judge would be forced to give corps B the edge. Until that happens, they can just write off the "high demand" if it's not clean and corps will continue to play it safe and stay in the design rut they're in. Hopefully someday soon a corps will decide to "re-innovate." Actually, I think Phantom tended to play a lot of their licks on the move last year...can't remember though.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Medeabrass